Wednesday 23 January 2008
Monday 21 January 2008
Gary Sewell 1st Interview
I would like to make a few comments before you read this taped interview. Please remember, this is the friend of the deceased and along with Robert White they were out together that night. The interview lasts some 40 minutes and he speaks about me at some lenght. What I still find strange is during the course of this interview and for that matter all his other interviews his next one lasts 44 mins and the one after that 16mins. He was never asked if I was involved and he doesn't ever mention me as being involved. How strange is that ,that the main suspect is not mentioned to the only person other than Gorman that came into contact with the killers? Another thing worth noting is how Sewell describes one of the attackers as possibly having something to eat in their hands, again this was discarded. I'm not saying they did,but this was a murder inquiry and every thing should of been followed up. Sewell is asked was Karl Sommerton one of the three men he alleges came up to him and he replys definitely not. He continues in that vain throughout his interviews. But when he eventually makes his statement he goes on to name Karl! I must tell you when I was charged and in Prison with Rod Moore and Karl, I actually beleived Karl must have done it. I knew Rod and me hadn't and I thought the Police couldn't have got it completely wrong. I used to try and trick Karl to find out if he had done it. It was only after receiving witness statements that I realized he wasn't involved. It was then that I realized we were being stitched up. Anyway read Sewell's statement, he comes across as very vague as if he's hiding something. Then compare it to mine...
ADDRESS:
GARY WILLIAM SEWELL
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: OCCUPATION: HOUSEMAN
23 11011968
Who states: - This statement consisting of pages, each signed by ne, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED; 020391
NORFOLK CONSTABULARY
G W SEWELL (Signed)
PERSON INTERVIEWED: Gary Sewell
PLACE OF INTERVIEW: Interview Room 1, Kings Lynn Police Station
DATE OF INTERVIEW: 2nd March, 1991.
TIME COMMENCED: 1330 hrs TIME CONCLUDED: 1410 hrs TAPE REFERENCE NUMBERS: D (a) 427/91
MASTER TAPE NUMBERS: One
Interviewing Officers: DS NEWTON & DC FROST
Other Persons Present: Raymond CROSBY, Kenneth Bush &.Co. SIGNATURE OF OFFICER PREPARING RECORD: Miss B.D. PAGE
This interview is being tape recorded the time is 1.30pm on the 2nd March,
1991, we are in interview room number one at Kings Lynn Police Station and I am Detective Sergeant Peter NEWTON of Kings Lynn CID... Detective Constable FROST of Kings Lynn CID....
Could you introduce yourself please... I am Mr Gary SEWELL of 29 Brennan Place, North Lynn.
And you date of birth please... eleventh of the first sixty eight....
And I am Raymond CROSBY solicitor of Kenneth Bush & Co...-.
Thanks very much. I'll tell you at the end of this interview we will serve you with this notice which explains to you, your solicitor how you can get hold of copies of the tapes etc, do you understand that?
Yes thanks.
Q. 0.55
You do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, out what you say ma\' be given in evidence, do you understand that?
R. Yeah.
Q.
And you are happy with just the four of us in this room?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Do you understand why you have been arrested?
R.
It's err, cause it's a serious offence.
Q.
Yeah, you have actually been arrested for causing grievous bodily harm it involves an incident that happened at the err Cellar Bar last night, ok?
R.
Right.
Q.
You know all about it do you want to tell us your side of the story; you know what happened who you were out with etc last night?
R. 1.34
Yeah, err, I went to the Wild Fowler last night for a few drinks and err, after we left the Wildfowler we came up to Cellar Bar.
Q.
Who's we?
R.
Me err, Tony GORMAN and Robert WHITE.
Q.1.52
Where do Robert live?
R.
Fairstead I don't know, it's the first turning on the right as you go into Fairstead.
Q.
What in the Marlborough Park area or the Fairstead itself?
R.
I don't really know
Q.
No ok.
R.
Sorry about that. We went up to err Cellar Bar had a few drinks in there and err through the evening I was approached by a couple of blokes and that and asked you know what we was doing that and that.
Q-2-29
Do you know who they were?
R.
No, you get it now and again don't you you know when you go in a pub. There that was all forgotten about you know keep me nose clean you know, and err then from there, yeah that's it, then what happened later on in the evening is I got up off my seat and the television from behind me fell down and hit me on the back. The bouncers cone over and err I explained to them that just fell off and hit me and they said that's no problem, They did joke about say oh you shouldn't chuck tables about but in all good humour, you know not causing any trouble at all.
Q. 3.13
Do you know which doormen these were?
R.
What doormens they were?
Q.
Yeah?
R.
I think one of them was Mick.
Q.
Mick.
R.
I don't know his last name.
Q.
Hum, hum.
R.
And there was another bloke there; he kept coming over as well.
Q.
What about, a doorman?
R.
No I don't think that was a doorman. He just come over to me and he said, you ain't causing no trouble are you something like that, and I said no, I don't know why, what that was all about...
Q. 3.47
What did he look like then?
R.
Fairly tall bloke, shortish hair,sort of like, sort of cropped hair going fairly thin.
Q.
What was he wearing?
R.
Oh.I ain't got a clue honest.
Q.
Was it like a doorman would wear normally?
R.
No.
Q.
No. I mean a doorman would generally wear the white shirt and the dark trousers, black trousers don't they?
R.
That's right, yeah, yeah, anyhow that, after that incident where the telly fell on my back everything was sweet, you know, the bouncers just laughed and say you know that's alright don't worry about it and um, then later, well a little bit later they said you know it's time so me, Robert and Tony you know started to leave, as we got up the top of the Cellar Bar you know I noticed that Tony weren't with us, so err, sort of waited I suppose for five minutes, I went down the stairs and he was half way up the stairs talking to err Karl SXXXXXXN and they was exchanging sort of words, really sort of having a go and that.
Q.
Having a row?
R.
Yeah, and Karl said you wait you London bastard I'll get you, I'll get Micky onto you he’ll hammer you, something like that, I’m not I aint saying their exact words but you know they are there thereabouts. So I said to Karl come on Karl leave it out because I don’t want any trouble you know all I wanted to do was just to go out for a drink and go home in the evening and get to bed you know err, so anyhow Karl started, you know went down the rest of the steps into the cellar bar and I followed Karl and he went up to Micky and said to Micky about that London bloke he wanted to know or something like that you know, and err, Micky come up the stairs and I said to Micky look, Micky don't want no trouble just leave it, leave it I don't want no trouble whatsoever, Micky said alright then, then as he got up the stairs he just went berserk honestly, he grabbed hold of me neck and I couldn't breathe, it made me go all floppy, he just kept, I could just see his teeth, he just kept head butting me and head butting me and head butting me...
Q.
Micky TEAL did?
R.
Yeah he just kept going bang, bang, bang, bang, and honestly all the strength I had on me I could not move him, there was loads, or half the life there was left was trying to hold him back, he was just so strong you know.
Q. 6.27
Was he the only one that hit you?
R
Yeah.
Q.
Mick?
R.
That's all I know yeah, yeah, just kept hitting me, head butting me like that and as I say I may have sprung back in self defence, you know, but when something like that happen, it happen so quick you don't know do you know what I mean, and err, anyhow, after he'd done it right he, that's it they pull him away from me and like he was going fuck off, so I was sort of no and just run and then I see me mate Tony (pause)....
Q.
Alright, take your time.
R.
I see me mate Tony right and he, he just come up to me, he, say to me
(Inaudible).
Q. 7.35
Hang on just a second mate, take your time yeah, just hold off, just take a couple of minutes or couple of seconds just to compose yourself a bit.
Q.
Do you smoke Gary?
R.
No thank you.
Q.
When you were, did you see Tony get hit at the Cellar Bar at all?
R.
No I don't think so. Cause, no, cause when we come up the stairs, he was at the top of the stairs and Mick was trying to push his way through, he started to get a bit angry you know.
Q.
Whose he. Tony?
R.
No Mick.
Q.
Mick.
R.
Got angry, and like I said he just grabbed me round the neck and sort of nearly picked me up, I couldn’t breathe.
Q. 8.18
What were you wearing last night?
R.
Just me, red and grey stripey shirt and me jeans, just a pair of leather kick boots.
Q.
So you are now at the top of the stairs and you've hit Mick has hit you, where is Tony now?
R.
Probably, say the top of the stairs right, you come down don't you at the top here, he. Tony must. be no more than a few yards away I should say.
Q.
What outside the....
R.
Outside....
Q.
Outside in Paige Stair Lane, he's standing out in the open in Paige Stair Lane is he?
R.
I don't know what the lane is called.
Q.
Well if you come out the Cellar, Cellar Bar you come into a roadway don't you?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
And he's. Tony is standing out there? .
R.
Yeah.
Q. 9.07
Is he hurt in any way did you notice anything on him?
R.
Not that I noticed I was too sort of more sort of concerned about myself being hurt
Q.
Right so what happened then?.
R.
Well he come up to me we started to walk, or I ran off you know I met him up just up by the employment place is it?
Q.
Yeah, Lovell House, it's on the corner of the Tuesday Market Place and...
Q.
Yeah, that's right...
R.
Yeah....
Q.
Do you know Ward Gethen, solicitors Ward Gethen....
R.
Yeah, that's there ain't it and then the employment place is there...
Q.
Just down from the Maids?
R.
Yeah, that's it.
Q.
So you go down the Maids towards Lovell House on that corner yeah.
R. 9.47
Now I can't tell you where I met Tony when we walked up to there but I met him somewhere from the Cellar Bar to there you know what I mean.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
I can't say the precise. Um, these geezers come up to us and said you've had a kicking now it's me mates turn or something, something like that and he sort of run I sort thought let's get out of it cause I didn't want, cause I was already hurt you know I don't want no trouble and first of all I ran across the road to try and get in the gravel car park and Tony....
Q.
Get into where sorry?
R.
That Gravel car park.
Q.
Yeah, opposite the Tudor Rose?
R.
Yeah, and then Tony run down and then he run across to the gravel car park and they was chasing ain so I stopped and went the opposite way, not the gravel car park way, going down past the church and left is it the, err, John Taylors tattoo shop?
Q.
Yeah, towards Micky Tattoos down St. Annes Street....
R.
And well I've seen the gravel car park by the Lattice House they was just kicking him and punching him, just kicking him to bits.
Q. 10.57
You don't know who they were?
R.
No.
Q.
Had you seen them before? Were they in the Cellar Bar?
R.
I don't know if they were in there or not, you know I didn't, I just couldn't believe it what they kept doing. I was, said to them leave it out and they started on Tony....
Q. 11.22
What sort of state was Tony in when you met him round about the employment exchange, how was he, did he have any injuries that's what I am trying to find out?
R.
I don't think so no.
Q.
He was walking ok was he?
R.
Yeah, he was walking ok, yeah.
Q.
What happened to you after that then?
R.
I started to walk, I see him getting kicked and that and I was just so knackered cause I've got asthma and tired and hurting I just wanted to, no trouble I just kept walking and I walked down and I see this girl and asked her if I needed to go to hospital or not and she said I could use her phone.
Q.
Do you know who the girl was?
R.
No. Anyhow we was walking along this must be Loke Road and a Taxi stopped and asked if I wanted a lift and I said yeah can you take me to the hospital, he took me to the hospital.
Q. 12.26
Did you go anywhere before he took you to the hospital?
R.
No I don't think so, I remember dropping one person off, there was a couple of people in there, I remember dropping one person off, I think that was on the way to hospital. When I got to hospital I explained what had happened and told them that I was concerned about my friend and had he been brought in and told her I wanted a policeman there so I could tell the police what had happened. And then when I was having my eye stitched up the policeman was in and he was alright, told me what had happened, and at that time didn’t know me mate was killed (crying).
Q. 13.39
What was Tony wearing?
R.
He was wearing blue jeans, jeans, a rugby shirt, England; I think that was blue, red and white squares on it.
Q.
Like quartered, quarters yeah?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
As far as you are con... as far as you are aware he was never hit in the Cellar Bar he was never hit other than by those three people....
R.
That's right....
Q. 13.40
Can you describe anything about them?
R.
I just didn't want to know, you know, I just turned me back and went.
Q.
Where did they come from?
R.
As we got to that employment place I think they come from across the Tuesday Market.
Q.
There was definitely three blokes?
R.
That was definitely three blokes, they just started flying into him and kicking him. At first they started kicking him and he sort of run away and.....
Q. 14.10
Where is this where were you now do you remember?
R.
That was just down by the err, that junction there, by the employment place, down you know bottom junction, that....
Q.
Near the Tudor Rose?
R.
Yeah, that's it just by the Tudor Rose and they started kicking then he run across like I say the gravel car park and then they just kicked him to bits.
Q.
Were there a lot of people about at this time?
R.
No, didn't see no-one, just wanted to get out.
Q.
What happened to your, let's have a look at both your hands. They are both bruised up aren't they, quite badly bruised aren't they?
R.
Yeah, yeah .that's right.
Q. 14.55
How did that happen?
R.
I don't know if that was when sort of Micky was dragging me up the stairs or when I lashed out when Micky grabbed hold of me.
Q.
Then you could have hit him back?
R.
I might have hit him back but I just honestly can't remember
Q
As far as you are aware....
R.
I didn't touch him....
Q.
The only person that hit you was that Micky TEAL?
R.
Yeah unless they hit me from behind.
Q.
Do you remember anybody else that was standing around while all this was going on?
R.
No.
Q.
What about Karl?
R.
Karl?
Q
SXXXXXXN?
R.
Yeah Karl was there, yeah that's it cause he was he was up the stairs he come behind the stairs, behind us up the stairs.
Q. 15.40
Was he one of the people that hit Tony?
R.
No.
Q.
Definitely not?
R.
Definitely not. I honestly, the people who hit Tony, I hadn't seen them before but they had, I think they had a strange accent.
Q.
Are we sure about this?
R.
Yeah, one of them did. Not too posh, not posh jut proper, you know spoke proper, yeah.
Q.
I think we are going to have to go through this again....
Q.
Yeah....
Q.
Right, bit by bit and try and do your best to remember it to the best of your ability ok?
Q.
Yeah....
Q.
That's what we'll do. Right first of all let's get the time when you left the Woolpack....
R.
Woolpack?....
Q.
Oh Wild Fowler sorry?
R.
Wild Fowler about tenish.
0.
Ten PM?
R.
Yeah round about....
Q. 16.42
Where do you go from the Wild Fowler?
R.
Err up the Cellar Bar.
Q.
How did you go?
R.
Err with taxi.
Q.
What taxi do you know?
R.
No. No, sorry about that I went to the err, the New Inn for one drink and we got a lift with some boys from the New Inn into town.
Q. 17.09
Who were these boys?
R.
Someone who was staying over they had a Maestro, G reg Maestro silver.
Q.
Someone who was staying over...
Q.
Staying over?
R.
Maybe working I think, yeah.
Q.
I mean how did you get with all of those lads?
R.
Well we come out there and sort of waiting for a taxi and say is there any chance of a lift into town mate, yeah sure hop in.
Q.
How many boys were there?
R.
There was two boys.
Q.
were they either of the people that hit Tony?
R.
No I don't....
Q.
You say they are from away, they could have the different accent?
R.
Yeah, no they weren't any different than mine.
Q. 17.43
So you have got two boys?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Now what about there are three of you?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
What's the other lads nane?
R.
What....
Q.
There was you. Tony and...
R.
Robert, WHITE.
Q.
Robert WHITE. So alright you leave the New Inn....
R.
Yeah, after one drink that’s all we had in there.
Q.
What do you do, you get into town right?
R.
Yeah, straight to the Cellar Bar.
Q.
Straight to the Cellar Bar, can you tell me, Where were you dropped off?
R.
Outside the Maids.
Q. 18.12
So you're dropped outside the Maids, which way did you come into town?
R.
Cor.
Q.
Do you know?
R.
I think we, yeah I know we came down the bypass and stopped off at my house at Brennan Place so I could get my asthma enhailer as I had asthma.
Q.
So those blokes took you to your house then....
R.
Yeah....
Q.
As well?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
So they were good old ooys then were they?
R.
Yeah, alrignt.
Q. 13.42
Alright so you come into town they drop you off do they?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Where do they go?
R.
I don't know just drive off I thinik, I think they were saying they were going to a party somewnere.
Q.
Did they say where?
R.
No they was going to go and pick a mate up to go to a party or something like that.
Q.
So that leaves you Tony and Robert?
R.
Robert yeah.
Q. 19.04
What time do you think you got into the Cellar Bar?
R.
Err, you know I said ten o'clock there?
Q.
Yeah?
R.
I think that might be a bit earlier, say half past nine and ten half past in the Cellar Bar.
Q.
So you are arriving at the Cellar Bar between ten and half past ten?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Ok you walk in there.
R.
Yeah.
Q. 19.28
Where do you go in the Cellar Bar, what did you have to do?
R.
Have a drink, went up to the bar had a drink.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Just wandered about mingling chatting to people.
Q.
Mingling and chatting can you remember who you were talking to?
R.
Yeah, me next door neighbour.
Q.
Who's that?
R.
All I know him is Chips, he lives across the road.
Q.
Chips?
R.
Yeah, have you heard of him play football for North Lynn I think. Err. I can't think of his last name, Andrew his first name is, Andrew.
Q.
Ok, what is the first time there is any form of antaganism, agro or whatever you would like to describe it in there?
R.
What, what with Mick?
Q.
With anybody (both officers together)
R.
Well we was just sort of having a laugh and a joke and that and sort of, (inaudible) me and sort of said what are you looking are you know just behave, stop staring at me and so on. Some words like that and I just said alright mate, I'm just sort of having a laugh minding my own business and that was it and err that was it that was forgot about.
Q.
You don't know who he was?
R. No.
Q.
Can you describe him to the best of your ability?
R.
I think he's fairly tall, short cropped hair you know going thin, err that's all.
Q.
What time was this then Gary?
R.
I should think we was there about half an hour.
Q.
See we are sort of talking, what time you tell me?
R.
Half an hour something like that, half. About eleven quarter past eleven say.
Q.
So that's the first sign of any trouble?
R.
Yeah, but that weren't really a sign you know you always get some idiot don't you.
Q.
Hmm. That was just a normal....
R.
Yeah, you see it everywhere you go don't you.
Q.
Who was he, was he with a few people or on his own or what?
R.
I think he might have been with a couple of people, didn't really take alot of notice you know.
Q.
Alright so what happens after that?
R.
Like I say err that telly, did I tell you about the telly?
Q.
Yeah.
Q.
Yeah, can you tell us again.
R.
Yeah, sure. I got off like sitting here you have got a bench here and a telly behind me and I got off the chair sort of moved and the telly hit me on the back and that fell on the floor and obviously the bouncers come over, I said oh, oh I didn’t touched it or messed about with it you know it just fell on the floor when I got up, you know, hit me on the back and fell on the floor, that’s all Mick said to me that's alright and he joked about saying you shouldn’t throw it about...
Q. .
So you know Mick then do you?
R.
Yeah I know him just to you know to talk to.
Q. 22.27
You know Micky TEAL, if you saw Micky TEAL in the street you knew that was Micky TEAL
R.
Yeah. And err, like I say he said that was alright, forgot about, I didn't get chucked out there at all, you know, the incident was forgotten and you know carried on.
Q.
Can we just clarify that, did you say Micky came up by himself or was there somebody else with him?
R.
There may have been someone else, I am not sure you know, in you. background....
Q.
Do you know the names of any of the other bouncers that were in there?
R.
No I just know Mick that's all.
Q.
I mean he, normally they all stand together the bouncers won't they, now who was he standing with when he was in there....
R.
Just walking about....
Q.
You must have seen....
R.
He was just walking about, I don't really know if he was actual bouncing that night, last night, or what. He didn't have a black suit on or nothing so. He was having a drink and that with everybody, walking about, whether he was bouncing properly I don't know.
Q.
Where, where was Tony at this time in the incident with the televison falling off the stand?
R.
He may have been sitting next to me I think, pretty sure he was.
Q.
What about Robert WHITE?
R.
Yeah sitting where you are now, opposite me...
Q.
Sort of sitting in a group?
R.
Yeah that's it.
Q.
So that is, that sort of passes?
R.
Yeah that has past that has.
Q.
And after that?
R.
Yeah and they said sort of drink up everybody out now, so err, started to go like I say, err went up the stairs with Rob and I thought Tony was sort of behind us...
Q. 24.01
So what point did... you two left, why didn't Tony come with you?
R.
He did come with us, but as I say he got up to the top of the stairs and waited you know, just sort of talking and that and then I thought hang on Tony ain't here, went downstairs and when I went downstairs half way down the stairs him and Karl SOMMERTON were having a .....
Q.
Right if we….
R.
Disagreement with each other
Q
If we just hold it there Gary. Were you ever assaulted in any way inside the Cellar Bar?
R.
Was I ever assaulted?
Q.
Yeah hit?
R.
No.
Q.
Hit or....
Q.
Was anybody that you saw hit inside the Cellar Bar?
R.
No I don't think so, no.
Q. 24.46
Were you pushed, were you any sort of violence at all?
R.
Someone pushed me and I did mention that to err Micky I said someone has sort of pushed me.
Q.
You were pushed that's all?
R.
Yeah.
0.
No-one, there was not a ruck?
R.
No.
Q.26
Or anything like that?
R.
No, just pushed and I said to Micky. ..
Q.
You were never, you never had your arms up your back and marched out?
R.
No.
Q.
Did you see anybody that was marched out?
R.
No, no.
Q.
Alright so we get to the point that you were about to leave the Cellar Bar?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
What, where is Tony?
R.
Well I left with Rob and Tony, both together, they just tried to push the way through the crowds and they got split up for about three to four yards you know, anyhow I sort of got to the top, Rob got to the top, talking to Rob waiting for Tony to sort of get to the top and five minutes I went down and him and Karl were half way down the stairs having a go at each other and Karl is saying sort of about you London bastard I'll get Micky you, he'll do you something like that.
Q.
Ok if we hold that there, so you're at the top of the stairs you are saying.
R.
Yeah, I am walking down, I walked down to him.
Q.
How far out of the Cellar Bar did you get to find this altercation?
R.
At the top by the railings round there.
Q.
Right so you then go back, who is in the vicinity at that time or between Tony and Karl who was there do you know?
R.
I didn't know anybody else, there was a couple of other people there I think.
Q.
Was Micky TEAL there?
No he was inside, inside the Cellar Bar.
Q.
Was any of the bouncers there?
R.
I don't think so, no.
Q. 26.35
Did you, when you went down did you have a go at Karl?
R.
No I just. said come on Karl Look leave it tonight that's enough, you know had enough now, let's aill go but and he said I fucking get Micky and off he went. so I followed Karl and Karl say that fucking little London wanker and all that sort of …… and I said come on Micky look let's leave it and Micky sort of see he was a bit angry but he seemed alright and he said no out the way he said leave me and so I got up the stairs and then I just, imagine you two are sort of one there and one there, I sort of stepped in between and tried to stop Micky getting up the stairs but he's orettv strong that bloke he just grabbed me round the neck, he honestly he pushed me at the neck so tight.....
Q. 27.22
So he was trying to get past you to get at Tony?
R.
I'd say so yeah.
Q.
Right.
R.
Yeah, and he grabbed me so hard round the neck I couldn't breath honestly that made me feel all flopoy. Any how and he just kept head. butting me, head butting me, head butting me and I could see him sort of laughing with sort of anger and all blood running down his teeth as if he's a mad man possessed you know, just kept going bang, bang, bang at me face it was a nightmare I just didn't believe it.
Q.
So where was Tony now?
R.
Tony was at the top of the stairs, cause when I went down to get, whats his name Micky, you know to tell Micky to leave it out. Tony then went up to the top of the stairs I think he was probably standing with Robert at the top of the stairs.
Q. 28.10
So what about SXXXXXXN where is he now?
R. .
He's, he come up with him.
Q.
He'd gone up with him?
R
Well once, once he err you know he'd come up behind me and Micky amongst a couple of other people which I don't who they are out I know there's other people were about.Then when Micky started head butting me and that and going mental that took loads of blokes to hold him back.
Q.
Do you know any of these blokes?
R.
No.
Q.
Any of the other bouncers try and hold him back?
R.
Yeah I think, err one with glasses.
Q.
A bouncer with glasses?
R.
I don't know if he was a bouncer.
Q.
A bloke with glasses tried to hold....
R.
Yeah, I don't know what his name was, I've seen him before, err he might have, he said come on Micky sort of calm down and that and then.....
Q.
And you ran away you say?
R.
Yeah I just didn't want to know you know.
Q.
Did you run?
R.
Sort of like a fast walk sort of thing just to get out the way.
Q. 29.11
So when was the last time you saw Tony?
R.
As I went I just sort of praying that he weren't running behind me trying to get me if you know what I mean, you know Micky...
Q..
Yeah...
R.
And I got up the road a bit further and then Tony come. Tony must have sort off seen me going and followed me and I see him, he looked alright looked as right as rain, honestly.
Q.
He looked ok, you are sure there was no marks on him?
R
I don't think there was.
Q.
Hmm.
R.
You know what I mean I couldn't see a lot, me eye was shut by that time, there was blood running down me face, but I don't think he was hit at that time.
Q. 29.52
What about Robert does he see all this then?
R.
He might have done yeah.
Q.
I mean he would have been there wouldn't he?
R.
Yeah unless he sort of legged it at the sign of trouble.
Q.
How do you get hold of Robert if you want to meet him to go out or something like that have you got a phone number?
R.
He work with Tony so they arrange it between them and then I just go out with Tony.
Q.
You have no idea where Robert lives then?
R.
I know it's Fairstead, you turn first right at Fairstead, he lodges
Q.
Do you know who he lodges with?
R.
Um no If you turn, right you come into Fairstead from the main road...
Q.
Yeah.
R.
You turn the first right...
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Just follow that all the way down to the end and there is a little drive way on your right hand side, right at the end, a little drive way. Is there a sports social club there?
Q.
Not a sports and social club.
R.
Is there some big field or something?
Q.
You are saying if you go down Regency Avenue, that's Regency Avenue that turning on the right, if you go straight down there, there is just houses.
R.
Yeah, you keep going right down...
Q.
Right at the very end....
Q.
There might be a playing field or something like that...
R.
The end....
Q.
Cause at the very end there is a row of cottages which goes onto Gayton Road and then you have got of cause the Wild Fowler....
R.
Because he can cut from, yeah, he can cut from that, across the back there and come out by the Wild Fowler.
Q.
That's right there is a pathway there.
R.
That's it that's where he live....
Q.
How far up?
Q.
Right down the very end you say?
R
Yeah.
Q.
Oh so that's right down the bottom of Regency by the sounds of it.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Ok. Has he got a car?
R.
Yeah he's got a blue mini.
Q.
Blue mini?
R.
Yeah.
Q. 31.24
Right, so you're now sorry oh it don’t make no difference, you are now together again, is Robert there?
R.
No
Q.
Where has he gone?
R.
I don't know, I don't know whether he stayed there, I think he was talking to a girl when he was in there, so, whether he sort of got off with her I don't know.
Q.
Where was the last point exactly you saw, remember seeing Robert WHITE?
R.
On the top of the stairs when I went down to see where Tony was.
Q.
So in other words before you had the fight.
R.
Yeah, well I didn't have a fight...
Q.
Well you were....yeah.
Q.
So then you end up, you are standing about Lovell House on the edge of the Tuesday Market Place, three people approach?
R.
Yeah there was definitely three people.
Q. 32.14
And say you've had a kicking it's your mates turn or words to that effect?
R.
Yeah, that's it, yeah.
Q.
Now to add, had you seen them before in the Cellar Bar?
R.
(Coughs) excuse me. No I can't picture their faces no.
Q.
Can you picture what they were wearing, anything about them, were they big lads, little lads?
R
Err, probably about my height, maybe a bit sort of thinner than me, a couple of then, probably one about the same size as Tony.
Q.
So you both then run off do you?
R.
Yeah, I, Tony run down, they run after him, followed him onto the car park and Tony run across the car park and they started running towards him so I thought no and I run that way just to get away from the trouble.
Q.
You ran in the opposite direction to Tony?
R.
Yeah... and I just see them get Tony by the Lattice House and start kicking him and kicking him and kicking him
Q.
By the Lattice House?
R.
By the Lattice House, between the Lattice House and the car park somewhere around that area, I know when I looked down there I see the Lattice House and he was nearer the Lattice House than he was to me so you know round that area somewhere.
Q. 33.31
If you can just open the palms of your hand and put them on there. What do you do for a living?
R.
Engineer or I work for a water company....
Q.
Yeah....
R.
And err we do water treatment.
Q.
Ok.
Q.
You didn't see or did you see where the lads went after they had hit Tony?
R.
No, I just see him kicking him and that, I got lost you know, I just I carried on, you know what I mean, they were still kicking him.
Q.
Can you remember seeing anyone else in that area at that time?
R.
No.
Q. 34.08
What time are we talking about do you feel when you left the Lattice House.
R.
That was...
Q.
Not the Lattice House beg your pardon the Cellar Bar?
R.
Err, I think, I lost track of the time you know really.
Q.
I mean what tine they call time at the Cellar Bar when you, it usually starts moving....
R.
They usually have last orders at one o'clock out while I was at the hospital I am sure that she said that was about quarter to one at the hospital so I think I didn't....
Q.
Might have been quarter, one forty five, well I don't know.
R.
Unless that was shut early you know.
Q.
So...
Q.
You didn't see any trouble down there?
R.
No, that's why we go down there, cause we don't go round the town, the pubs in town very often, cause you always getting packed and everybody pushing about, we go for a drink up the Wild Fowler and then sometimes we might go to the New Inn, not very often and straight down to the Cellar Bar, get a later drink in there, go home and that's it you know. Evening out with the lads, make a change.
Q.
Alright.
Q. 35.15
How well do you know Tony?
R.
I, he live, I live next door to him for four years but only the last year I sort of really got know him as a friend.
Q.
Is he, is he trappy is he a bit loud? When you say he's a Londoner and he's sort of.... R.
Yeah, just a typical Londoner really...
Q.
Yeah, full of, full of the old...
R.
Yeah kind spirit.
Q.
Yeah
R.
He wouldn't hurt a fly though.
Q.
No.
R.
But he's just probably got a bit of a mouth and that.
Q.
Would you have a go at someone if they have a go at you, are you the sort that will have a go at somebody?
R.
No no. I mean I've never been hit before you know I just walk away that don’t interest me.
Q.
I haven't got anything else to say at the minute have you?
Q.
No, not at the moment no.
Q.
No.
Q.
Not at the moment.
Q
Something else you want to say?
R.
No.
Q.
Mr. CROSBY?
Sol.
No.
Q. 36.08
Can you describe what these blokes were wearing can you? Were they young blokes?
R.
Yeah, around our age.
Q.
Which is?
R.
Twenty three to twenty eight something like that could be....
Q.
They are not kids, I mean they are not your six, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen and nineteen year old that sort of, you feel they were older than that?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Were they wearing jeans do you remember?
R.
I honestly can't say, probably jeans yeah.
Q.
Did you notice their tops jumpers or what?
R.
No, I can't remember.
Q. 36.37
And where did they come from when you said they went across the Tuesday Market Place?
R.
Where?
Q.
Where did they come from, cause you said you were going down, you were going towards the job centre where ever it is...
R.
That's it yeah, and they come from the Tuesday. Market Place across.
Q.
Across from which direction?
R.
Sort of, we was at that corner and I see them, say that was the car park the actual car park, the side of the car park at the corner.
Q.
Look say this table is the Tuesday Market Place...
R.
Yeah
Q
And the table top sort of left hand corner is where you are walking; you've got the Cellar Bar over there.
R. The Cellar Bar is down here yeah...
Q.
Which, which way did they come from?
R.
From about here and I was there right and I see them walking....
Q.
You've got the Maids Head here; you know the Maids don't you...
R.
Yeah....
Q.
And you've got the Dukes Head....
R.
Yeah...
Q.
So by pointing there....
R.
They didn't come out of the Maids I don't think, I think they come from the car park.
Q.
From the car park?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Like as if they had been in, perhaps in a motor, did you hear a car door slam or anything like that?
R.
No.
Q.
They didn't come, well did they come up from behind you as if they had come from the Cellar Bar? Or don't you know?
R.
I don't know
Q.
Which side of the road were you; you were on the Tudor Rose side?
R.
Yeah.
Q. 37.46
Did they cross the road to come to you?
R.
Yeah I think they did, yeah, yeah.
They was either walking up the road or they crossed the road because yeah they did. Yeah.
Q.
Ok.
Q.
Right....
Sol. Did they say anything to you apart from you know the comments that you have already said in your interview, did they say any other words spoken?
R.
Err, just you know, you’ve had a kicking now it's your mates turn
Sol.
Was it just one of them saying that or all three of them saying it?
R.
They was just laughing and sort of a bit recklessly you know.
Q.
Was, I mean did you have a lot of blood, all over your face?
R.
Yeah, loads, yeah loads and loads and loads and loads...
Q.
So it was obvious you had had a kicking, what I am saying is you couldn't miss the face that you had had a kicking?
R.
No not really (laughs).
Sol.
Was it smart casual dress they were wearing or scruffy casual?
R.
Smart, definitely smart.
Q.
You mentioned the accents earlier on, or what they sounded like.
R.
Yeah sort off, it took, I see you've had a kicking you know they didn't sort of speak Norfolk if you know what I mean.
Q.
Unless it was they were taking the Mick, I see you had a kicking your turn old boy sort of thing?
R.
Yeah could be like that yeah.
Q.
Whichever way I mean, do you think it was a non Norfolk accent or somebody putting on an act?
R.
It's hard to say really. Like I say I just didn't want no hassle I'd had enough.
Q.
And Tony and you immediately ran nobody turned, you didn't turn to face him to have a go that was just a straight run....
R.
No, no, 'I didn't want nothing I didn't want no hassle.
Q. 39.25
And Tony was the same or did he run straight away or turn round and have a go..,.
R.
Tony run and they was catching him up and he turned round and I don't know whether they hit him then, yeah they started kicking him or hitting him then he run again um towards the Lattice House.
Q.
Ok we are going to have to leave it there for now. I just, did you want to make a written statement at the moment?
R.
No.
Q.
Ok, serve you with the notice which we explained to you before, do you want that.
Sol.
Yeah...
Right I'll leave that number.... the time is two ten and....
Q.
The interview is now being terminated....
Q.
We will terminate the interview.
G SEWELL SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN
PLACE:
TIME: DATE: 020391
WITNESS TO SIGNATURE: G SEWELL
OFFICERS SIGNATURE: DS NEWTON
ADDRESS:
GARY WILLIAM SEWELL
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: OCCUPATION: HOUSEMAN
23 11011968
Who states: - This statement consisting of pages, each signed by ne, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED; 020391
NORFOLK CONSTABULARY
G W SEWELL (Signed)
PERSON INTERVIEWED: Gary Sewell
PLACE OF INTERVIEW: Interview Room 1, Kings Lynn Police Station
DATE OF INTERVIEW: 2nd March, 1991.
TIME COMMENCED: 1330 hrs TIME CONCLUDED: 1410 hrs TAPE REFERENCE NUMBERS: D (a) 427/91
MASTER TAPE NUMBERS: One
Interviewing Officers: DS NEWTON & DC FROST
Other Persons Present: Raymond CROSBY, Kenneth Bush &.Co. SIGNATURE OF OFFICER PREPARING RECORD: Miss B.D. PAGE
This interview is being tape recorded the time is 1.30pm on the 2nd March,
1991, we are in interview room number one at Kings Lynn Police Station and I am Detective Sergeant Peter NEWTON of Kings Lynn CID... Detective Constable FROST of Kings Lynn CID....
Could you introduce yourself please... I am Mr Gary SEWELL of 29 Brennan Place, North Lynn.
And you date of birth please... eleventh of the first sixty eight....
And I am Raymond CROSBY solicitor of Kenneth Bush & Co...-.
Thanks very much. I'll tell you at the end of this interview we will serve you with this notice which explains to you, your solicitor how you can get hold of copies of the tapes etc, do you understand that?
Yes thanks.
Q. 0.55
You do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, out what you say ma\' be given in evidence, do you understand that?
R. Yeah.
Q.
And you are happy with just the four of us in this room?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Do you understand why you have been arrested?
R.
It's err, cause it's a serious offence.
Q.
Yeah, you have actually been arrested for causing grievous bodily harm it involves an incident that happened at the err Cellar Bar last night, ok?
R.
Right.
Q.
You know all about it do you want to tell us your side of the story; you know what happened who you were out with etc last night?
R. 1.34
Yeah, err, I went to the Wild Fowler last night for a few drinks and err, after we left the Wildfowler we came up to Cellar Bar.
Q.
Who's we?
R.
Me err, Tony GORMAN and Robert WHITE.
Q.1.52
Where do Robert live?
R.
Fairstead I don't know, it's the first turning on the right as you go into Fairstead.
Q.
What in the Marlborough Park area or the Fairstead itself?
R.
I don't really know
Q.
No ok.
R.
Sorry about that. We went up to err Cellar Bar had a few drinks in there and err through the evening I was approached by a couple of blokes and that and asked you know what we was doing that and that.
Q-2-29
Do you know who they were?
R.
No, you get it now and again don't you you know when you go in a pub. There that was all forgotten about you know keep me nose clean you know, and err then from there, yeah that's it, then what happened later on in the evening is I got up off my seat and the television from behind me fell down and hit me on the back. The bouncers cone over and err I explained to them that just fell off and hit me and they said that's no problem, They did joke about say oh you shouldn't chuck tables about but in all good humour, you know not causing any trouble at all.
Q. 3.13
Do you know which doormen these were?
R.
What doormens they were?
Q.
Yeah?
R.
I think one of them was Mick.
Q.
Mick.
R.
I don't know his last name.
Q.
Hum, hum.
R.
And there was another bloke there; he kept coming over as well.
Q.
What about, a doorman?
R.
No I don't think that was a doorman. He just come over to me and he said, you ain't causing no trouble are you something like that, and I said no, I don't know why, what that was all about...
Q. 3.47
What did he look like then?
R.
Fairly tall bloke, shortish hair,sort of like, sort of cropped hair going fairly thin.
Q.
What was he wearing?
R.
Oh.I ain't got a clue honest.
Q.
Was it like a doorman would wear normally?
R.
No.
Q.
No. I mean a doorman would generally wear the white shirt and the dark trousers, black trousers don't they?
R.
That's right, yeah, yeah, anyhow that, after that incident where the telly fell on my back everything was sweet, you know, the bouncers just laughed and say you know that's alright don't worry about it and um, then later, well a little bit later they said you know it's time so me, Robert and Tony you know started to leave, as we got up the top of the Cellar Bar you know I noticed that Tony weren't with us, so err, sort of waited I suppose for five minutes, I went down the stairs and he was half way up the stairs talking to err Karl SXXXXXXN and they was exchanging sort of words, really sort of having a go and that.
Q.
Having a row?
R.
Yeah, and Karl said you wait you London bastard I'll get you, I'll get Micky onto you he’ll hammer you, something like that, I’m not I aint saying their exact words but you know they are there thereabouts. So I said to Karl come on Karl leave it out because I don’t want any trouble you know all I wanted to do was just to go out for a drink and go home in the evening and get to bed you know err, so anyhow Karl started, you know went down the rest of the steps into the cellar bar and I followed Karl and he went up to Micky and said to Micky about that London bloke he wanted to know or something like that you know, and err, Micky come up the stairs and I said to Micky look, Micky don't want no trouble just leave it, leave it I don't want no trouble whatsoever, Micky said alright then, then as he got up the stairs he just went berserk honestly, he grabbed hold of me neck and I couldn't breathe, it made me go all floppy, he just kept, I could just see his teeth, he just kept head butting me and head butting me and head butting me...
Q.
Micky TEAL did?
R.
Yeah he just kept going bang, bang, bang, bang, and honestly all the strength I had on me I could not move him, there was loads, or half the life there was left was trying to hold him back, he was just so strong you know.
Q. 6.27
Was he the only one that hit you?
R
Yeah.
Q.
Mick?
R.
That's all I know yeah, yeah, just kept hitting me, head butting me like that and as I say I may have sprung back in self defence, you know, but when something like that happen, it happen so quick you don't know do you know what I mean, and err, anyhow, after he'd done it right he, that's it they pull him away from me and like he was going fuck off, so I was sort of no and just run and then I see me mate Tony (pause)....
Q.
Alright, take your time.
R.
I see me mate Tony right and he, he just come up to me, he, say to me
(Inaudible).
Q. 7.35
Hang on just a second mate, take your time yeah, just hold off, just take a couple of minutes or couple of seconds just to compose yourself a bit.
Q.
Do you smoke Gary?
R.
No thank you.
Q.
When you were, did you see Tony get hit at the Cellar Bar at all?
R.
No I don't think so. Cause, no, cause when we come up the stairs, he was at the top of the stairs and Mick was trying to push his way through, he started to get a bit angry you know.
Q.
Whose he. Tony?
R.
No Mick.
Q.
Mick.
R.
Got angry, and like I said he just grabbed me round the neck and sort of nearly picked me up, I couldn’t breathe.
Q. 8.18
What were you wearing last night?
R.
Just me, red and grey stripey shirt and me jeans, just a pair of leather kick boots.
Q.
So you are now at the top of the stairs and you've hit Mick has hit you, where is Tony now?
R.
Probably, say the top of the stairs right, you come down don't you at the top here, he. Tony must. be no more than a few yards away I should say.
Q.
What outside the....
R.
Outside....
Q.
Outside in Paige Stair Lane, he's standing out in the open in Paige Stair Lane is he?
R.
I don't know what the lane is called.
Q.
Well if you come out the Cellar, Cellar Bar you come into a roadway don't you?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
And he's. Tony is standing out there? .
R.
Yeah.
Q. 9.07
Is he hurt in any way did you notice anything on him?
R.
Not that I noticed I was too sort of more sort of concerned about myself being hurt
Q.
Right so what happened then?.
R.
Well he come up to me we started to walk, or I ran off you know I met him up just up by the employment place is it?
Q.
Yeah, Lovell House, it's on the corner of the Tuesday Market Place and...
Q.
Yeah, that's right...
R.
Yeah....
Q.
Do you know Ward Gethen, solicitors Ward Gethen....
R.
Yeah, that's there ain't it and then the employment place is there...
Q.
Just down from the Maids?
R.
Yeah, that's it.
Q.
So you go down the Maids towards Lovell House on that corner yeah.
R. 9.47
Now I can't tell you where I met Tony when we walked up to there but I met him somewhere from the Cellar Bar to there you know what I mean.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
I can't say the precise. Um, these geezers come up to us and said you've had a kicking now it's me mates turn or something, something like that and he sort of run I sort thought let's get out of it cause I didn't want, cause I was already hurt you know I don't want no trouble and first of all I ran across the road to try and get in the gravel car park and Tony....
Q.
Get into where sorry?
R.
That Gravel car park.
Q.
Yeah, opposite the Tudor Rose?
R.
Yeah, and then Tony run down and then he run across to the gravel car park and they was chasing ain so I stopped and went the opposite way, not the gravel car park way, going down past the church and left is it the, err, John Taylors tattoo shop?
Q.
Yeah, towards Micky Tattoos down St. Annes Street....
R.
And well I've seen the gravel car park by the Lattice House they was just kicking him and punching him, just kicking him to bits.
Q. 10.57
You don't know who they were?
R.
No.
Q.
Had you seen them before? Were they in the Cellar Bar?
R.
I don't know if they were in there or not, you know I didn't, I just couldn't believe it what they kept doing. I was, said to them leave it out and they started on Tony....
Q. 11.22
What sort of state was Tony in when you met him round about the employment exchange, how was he, did he have any injuries that's what I am trying to find out?
R.
I don't think so no.
Q.
He was walking ok was he?
R.
Yeah, he was walking ok, yeah.
Q.
What happened to you after that then?
R.
I started to walk, I see him getting kicked and that and I was just so knackered cause I've got asthma and tired and hurting I just wanted to, no trouble I just kept walking and I walked down and I see this girl and asked her if I needed to go to hospital or not and she said I could use her phone.
Q.
Do you know who the girl was?
R.
No. Anyhow we was walking along this must be Loke Road and a Taxi stopped and asked if I wanted a lift and I said yeah can you take me to the hospital, he took me to the hospital.
Q. 12.26
Did you go anywhere before he took you to the hospital?
R.
No I don't think so, I remember dropping one person off, there was a couple of people in there, I remember dropping one person off, I think that was on the way to hospital. When I got to hospital I explained what had happened and told them that I was concerned about my friend and had he been brought in and told her I wanted a policeman there so I could tell the police what had happened. And then when I was having my eye stitched up the policeman was in and he was alright, told me what had happened, and at that time didn’t know me mate was killed (crying).
Q. 13.39
What was Tony wearing?
R.
He was wearing blue jeans, jeans, a rugby shirt, England; I think that was blue, red and white squares on it.
Q.
Like quartered, quarters yeah?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
As far as you are con... as far as you are aware he was never hit in the Cellar Bar he was never hit other than by those three people....
R.
That's right....
Q. 13.40
Can you describe anything about them?
R.
I just didn't want to know, you know, I just turned me back and went.
Q.
Where did they come from?
R.
As we got to that employment place I think they come from across the Tuesday Market.
Q.
There was definitely three blokes?
R.
That was definitely three blokes, they just started flying into him and kicking him. At first they started kicking him and he sort of run away and.....
Q. 14.10
Where is this where were you now do you remember?
R.
That was just down by the err, that junction there, by the employment place, down you know bottom junction, that....
Q.
Near the Tudor Rose?
R.
Yeah, that's it just by the Tudor Rose and they started kicking then he run across like I say the gravel car park and then they just kicked him to bits.
Q.
Were there a lot of people about at this time?
R.
No, didn't see no-one, just wanted to get out.
Q.
What happened to your, let's have a look at both your hands. They are both bruised up aren't they, quite badly bruised aren't they?
R.
Yeah, yeah .that's right.
Q. 14.55
How did that happen?
R.
I don't know if that was when sort of Micky was dragging me up the stairs or when I lashed out when Micky grabbed hold of me.
Q.
Then you could have hit him back?
R.
I might have hit him back but I just honestly can't remember
Q
As far as you are aware....
R.
I didn't touch him....
Q.
The only person that hit you was that Micky TEAL?
R.
Yeah unless they hit me from behind.
Q.
Do you remember anybody else that was standing around while all this was going on?
R.
No.
Q.
What about Karl?
R.
Karl?
Q
SXXXXXXN?
R.
Yeah Karl was there, yeah that's it cause he was he was up the stairs he come behind the stairs, behind us up the stairs.
Q. 15.40
Was he one of the people that hit Tony?
R.
No.
Q.
Definitely not?
R.
Definitely not. I honestly, the people who hit Tony, I hadn't seen them before but they had, I think they had a strange accent.
Q.
Are we sure about this?
R.
Yeah, one of them did. Not too posh, not posh jut proper, you know spoke proper, yeah.
Q.
I think we are going to have to go through this again....
Q.
Yeah....
Q.
Right, bit by bit and try and do your best to remember it to the best of your ability ok?
Q.
Yeah....
Q.
That's what we'll do. Right first of all let's get the time when you left the Woolpack....
R.
Woolpack?....
Q.
Oh Wild Fowler sorry?
R.
Wild Fowler about tenish.
0.
Ten PM?
R.
Yeah round about....
Q. 16.42
Where do you go from the Wild Fowler?
R.
Err up the Cellar Bar.
Q.
How did you go?
R.
Err with taxi.
Q.
What taxi do you know?
R.
No. No, sorry about that I went to the err, the New Inn for one drink and we got a lift with some boys from the New Inn into town.
Q. 17.09
Who were these boys?
R.
Someone who was staying over they had a Maestro, G reg Maestro silver.
Q.
Someone who was staying over...
Q.
Staying over?
R.
Maybe working I think, yeah.
Q.
I mean how did you get with all of those lads?
R.
Well we come out there and sort of waiting for a taxi and say is there any chance of a lift into town mate, yeah sure hop in.
Q.
How many boys were there?
R.
There was two boys.
Q.
were they either of the people that hit Tony?
R.
No I don't....
Q.
You say they are from away, they could have the different accent?
R.
Yeah, no they weren't any different than mine.
Q. 17.43
So you have got two boys?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Now what about there are three of you?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
What's the other lads nane?
R.
What....
Q.
There was you. Tony and...
R.
Robert, WHITE.
Q.
Robert WHITE. So alright you leave the New Inn....
R.
Yeah, after one drink that’s all we had in there.
Q.
What do you do, you get into town right?
R.
Yeah, straight to the Cellar Bar.
Q.
Straight to the Cellar Bar, can you tell me, Where were you dropped off?
R.
Outside the Maids.
Q. 18.12
So you're dropped outside the Maids, which way did you come into town?
R.
Cor.
Q.
Do you know?
R.
I think we, yeah I know we came down the bypass and stopped off at my house at Brennan Place so I could get my asthma enhailer as I had asthma.
Q.
So those blokes took you to your house then....
R.
Yeah....
Q.
As well?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
So they were good old ooys then were they?
R.
Yeah, alrignt.
Q. 13.42
Alright so you come into town they drop you off do they?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Where do they go?
R.
I don't know just drive off I thinik, I think they were saying they were going to a party somewnere.
Q.
Did they say where?
R.
No they was going to go and pick a mate up to go to a party or something like that.
Q.
So that leaves you Tony and Robert?
R.
Robert yeah.
Q. 19.04
What time do you think you got into the Cellar Bar?
R.
Err, you know I said ten o'clock there?
Q.
Yeah?
R.
I think that might be a bit earlier, say half past nine and ten half past in the Cellar Bar.
Q.
So you are arriving at the Cellar Bar between ten and half past ten?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Ok you walk in there.
R.
Yeah.
Q. 19.28
Where do you go in the Cellar Bar, what did you have to do?
R.
Have a drink, went up to the bar had a drink.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Just wandered about mingling chatting to people.
Q.
Mingling and chatting can you remember who you were talking to?
R.
Yeah, me next door neighbour.
Q.
Who's that?
R.
All I know him is Chips, he lives across the road.
Q.
Chips?
R.
Yeah, have you heard of him play football for North Lynn I think. Err. I can't think of his last name, Andrew his first name is, Andrew.
Q.
Ok, what is the first time there is any form of antaganism, agro or whatever you would like to describe it in there?
R.
What, what with Mick?
Q.
With anybody (both officers together)
R.
Well we was just sort of having a laugh and a joke and that and sort of, (inaudible) me and sort of said what are you looking are you know just behave, stop staring at me and so on. Some words like that and I just said alright mate, I'm just sort of having a laugh minding my own business and that was it and err that was it that was forgot about.
Q.
You don't know who he was?
R. No.
Q.
Can you describe him to the best of your ability?
R.
I think he's fairly tall, short cropped hair you know going thin, err that's all.
Q.
What time was this then Gary?
R.
I should think we was there about half an hour.
Q.
See we are sort of talking, what time you tell me?
R.
Half an hour something like that, half. About eleven quarter past eleven say.
Q.
So that's the first sign of any trouble?
R.
Yeah, but that weren't really a sign you know you always get some idiot don't you.
Q.
Hmm. That was just a normal....
R.
Yeah, you see it everywhere you go don't you.
Q.
Who was he, was he with a few people or on his own or what?
R.
I think he might have been with a couple of people, didn't really take alot of notice you know.
Q.
Alright so what happens after that?
R.
Like I say err that telly, did I tell you about the telly?
Q.
Yeah.
Q.
Yeah, can you tell us again.
R.
Yeah, sure. I got off like sitting here you have got a bench here and a telly behind me and I got off the chair sort of moved and the telly hit me on the back and that fell on the floor and obviously the bouncers come over, I said oh, oh I didn’t touched it or messed about with it you know it just fell on the floor when I got up, you know, hit me on the back and fell on the floor, that’s all Mick said to me that's alright and he joked about saying you shouldn’t throw it about...
Q. .
So you know Mick then do you?
R.
Yeah I know him just to you know to talk to.
Q. 22.27
You know Micky TEAL, if you saw Micky TEAL in the street you knew that was Micky TEAL
R.
Yeah. And err, like I say he said that was alright, forgot about, I didn't get chucked out there at all, you know, the incident was forgotten and you know carried on.
Q.
Can we just clarify that, did you say Micky came up by himself or was there somebody else with him?
R.
There may have been someone else, I am not sure you know, in you. background....
Q.
Do you know the names of any of the other bouncers that were in there?
R.
No I just know Mick that's all.
Q.
I mean he, normally they all stand together the bouncers won't they, now who was he standing with when he was in there....
R.
Just walking about....
Q.
You must have seen....
R.
He was just walking about, I don't really know if he was actual bouncing that night, last night, or what. He didn't have a black suit on or nothing so. He was having a drink and that with everybody, walking about, whether he was bouncing properly I don't know.
Q.
Where, where was Tony at this time in the incident with the televison falling off the stand?
R.
He may have been sitting next to me I think, pretty sure he was.
Q.
What about Robert WHITE?
R.
Yeah sitting where you are now, opposite me...
Q.
Sort of sitting in a group?
R.
Yeah that's it.
Q.
So that is, that sort of passes?
R.
Yeah that has past that has.
Q.
And after that?
R.
Yeah and they said sort of drink up everybody out now, so err, started to go like I say, err went up the stairs with Rob and I thought Tony was sort of behind us...
Q. 24.01
So what point did... you two left, why didn't Tony come with you?
R.
He did come with us, but as I say he got up to the top of the stairs and waited you know, just sort of talking and that and then I thought hang on Tony ain't here, went downstairs and when I went downstairs half way down the stairs him and Karl SOMMERTON were having a .....
Q.
Right if we….
R.
Disagreement with each other
Q
If we just hold it there Gary. Were you ever assaulted in any way inside the Cellar Bar?
R.
Was I ever assaulted?
Q.
Yeah hit?
R.
No.
Q.
Hit or....
Q.
Was anybody that you saw hit inside the Cellar Bar?
R.
No I don't think so, no.
Q. 24.46
Were you pushed, were you any sort of violence at all?
R.
Someone pushed me and I did mention that to err Micky I said someone has sort of pushed me.
Q.
You were pushed that's all?
R.
Yeah.
0.
No-one, there was not a ruck?
R.
No.
Q.26
Or anything like that?
R.
No, just pushed and I said to Micky. ..
Q.
You were never, you never had your arms up your back and marched out?
R.
No.
Q.
Did you see anybody that was marched out?
R.
No, no.
Q.
Alright so we get to the point that you were about to leave the Cellar Bar?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
What, where is Tony?
R.
Well I left with Rob and Tony, both together, they just tried to push the way through the crowds and they got split up for about three to four yards you know, anyhow I sort of got to the top, Rob got to the top, talking to Rob waiting for Tony to sort of get to the top and five minutes I went down and him and Karl were half way down the stairs having a go at each other and Karl is saying sort of about you London bastard I'll get Micky you, he'll do you something like that.
Q.
Ok if we hold that there, so you're at the top of the stairs you are saying.
R.
Yeah, I am walking down, I walked down to him.
Q.
How far out of the Cellar Bar did you get to find this altercation?
R.
At the top by the railings round there.
Q.
Right so you then go back, who is in the vicinity at that time or between Tony and Karl who was there do you know?
R.
I didn't know anybody else, there was a couple of other people there I think.
Q.
Was Micky TEAL there?
No he was inside, inside the Cellar Bar.
Q.
Was any of the bouncers there?
R.
I don't think so, no.
Q. 26.35
Did you, when you went down did you have a go at Karl?
R.
No I just. said come on Karl Look leave it tonight that's enough, you know had enough now, let's aill go but and he said I fucking get Micky and off he went. so I followed Karl and Karl say that fucking little London wanker and all that sort of …… and I said come on Micky look let's leave it and Micky sort of see he was a bit angry but he seemed alright and he said no out the way he said leave me and so I got up the stairs and then I just, imagine you two are sort of one there and one there, I sort of stepped in between and tried to stop Micky getting up the stairs but he's orettv strong that bloke he just grabbed me round the neck, he honestly he pushed me at the neck so tight.....
Q. 27.22
So he was trying to get past you to get at Tony?
R.
I'd say so yeah.
Q.
Right.
R.
Yeah, and he grabbed me so hard round the neck I couldn't breath honestly that made me feel all flopoy. Any how and he just kept head. butting me, head butting me, head butting me and I could see him sort of laughing with sort of anger and all blood running down his teeth as if he's a mad man possessed you know, just kept going bang, bang, bang at me face it was a nightmare I just didn't believe it.
Q.
So where was Tony now?
R.
Tony was at the top of the stairs, cause when I went down to get, whats his name Micky, you know to tell Micky to leave it out. Tony then went up to the top of the stairs I think he was probably standing with Robert at the top of the stairs.
Q. 28.10
So what about SXXXXXXN where is he now?
R. .
He's, he come up with him.
Q.
He'd gone up with him?
R
Well once, once he err you know he'd come up behind me and Micky amongst a couple of other people which I don't who they are out I know there's other people were about.Then when Micky started head butting me and that and going mental that took loads of blokes to hold him back.
Q.
Do you know any of these blokes?
R.
No.
Q.
Any of the other bouncers try and hold him back?
R.
Yeah I think, err one with glasses.
Q.
A bouncer with glasses?
R.
I don't know if he was a bouncer.
Q.
A bloke with glasses tried to hold....
R.
Yeah, I don't know what his name was, I've seen him before, err he might have, he said come on Micky sort of calm down and that and then.....
Q.
And you ran away you say?
R.
Yeah I just didn't want to know you know.
Q.
Did you run?
R.
Sort of like a fast walk sort of thing just to get out the way.
Q. 29.11
So when was the last time you saw Tony?
R.
As I went I just sort of praying that he weren't running behind me trying to get me if you know what I mean, you know Micky...
Q..
Yeah...
R.
And I got up the road a bit further and then Tony come. Tony must have sort off seen me going and followed me and I see him, he looked alright looked as right as rain, honestly.
Q.
He looked ok, you are sure there was no marks on him?
R
I don't think there was.
Q.
Hmm.
R.
You know what I mean I couldn't see a lot, me eye was shut by that time, there was blood running down me face, but I don't think he was hit at that time.
Q. 29.52
What about Robert does he see all this then?
R.
He might have done yeah.
Q.
I mean he would have been there wouldn't he?
R.
Yeah unless he sort of legged it at the sign of trouble.
Q.
How do you get hold of Robert if you want to meet him to go out or something like that have you got a phone number?
R.
He work with Tony so they arrange it between them and then I just go out with Tony.
Q.
You have no idea where Robert lives then?
R.
I know it's Fairstead, you turn first right at Fairstead, he lodges
Q.
Do you know who he lodges with?
R.
Um no If you turn, right you come into Fairstead from the main road...
Q.
Yeah.
R.
You turn the first right...
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Just follow that all the way down to the end and there is a little drive way on your right hand side, right at the end, a little drive way. Is there a sports social club there?
Q.
Not a sports and social club.
R.
Is there some big field or something?
Q.
You are saying if you go down Regency Avenue, that's Regency Avenue that turning on the right, if you go straight down there, there is just houses.
R.
Yeah, you keep going right down...
Q.
Right at the very end....
Q.
There might be a playing field or something like that...
R.
The end....
Q.
Cause at the very end there is a row of cottages which goes onto Gayton Road and then you have got of cause the Wild Fowler....
R.
Because he can cut from, yeah, he can cut from that, across the back there and come out by the Wild Fowler.
Q.
That's right there is a pathway there.
R.
That's it that's where he live....
Q.
How far up?
Q.
Right down the very end you say?
R
Yeah.
Q.
Oh so that's right down the bottom of Regency by the sounds of it.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Ok. Has he got a car?
R.
Yeah he's got a blue mini.
Q.
Blue mini?
R.
Yeah.
Q. 31.24
Right, so you're now sorry oh it don’t make no difference, you are now together again, is Robert there?
R.
No
Q.
Where has he gone?
R.
I don't know, I don't know whether he stayed there, I think he was talking to a girl when he was in there, so, whether he sort of got off with her I don't know.
Q.
Where was the last point exactly you saw, remember seeing Robert WHITE?
R.
On the top of the stairs when I went down to see where Tony was.
Q.
So in other words before you had the fight.
R.
Yeah, well I didn't have a fight...
Q.
Well you were....yeah.
Q.
So then you end up, you are standing about Lovell House on the edge of the Tuesday Market Place, three people approach?
R.
Yeah there was definitely three people.
Q. 32.14
And say you've had a kicking it's your mates turn or words to that effect?
R.
Yeah, that's it, yeah.
Q.
Now to add, had you seen them before in the Cellar Bar?
R.
(Coughs) excuse me. No I can't picture their faces no.
Q.
Can you picture what they were wearing, anything about them, were they big lads, little lads?
R
Err, probably about my height, maybe a bit sort of thinner than me, a couple of then, probably one about the same size as Tony.
Q.
So you both then run off do you?
R.
Yeah, I, Tony run down, they run after him, followed him onto the car park and Tony run across the car park and they started running towards him so I thought no and I run that way just to get away from the trouble.
Q.
You ran in the opposite direction to Tony?
R.
Yeah... and I just see them get Tony by the Lattice House and start kicking him and kicking him and kicking him
Q.
By the Lattice House?
R.
By the Lattice House, between the Lattice House and the car park somewhere around that area, I know when I looked down there I see the Lattice House and he was nearer the Lattice House than he was to me so you know round that area somewhere.
Q. 33.31
If you can just open the palms of your hand and put them on there. What do you do for a living?
R.
Engineer or I work for a water company....
Q.
Yeah....
R.
And err we do water treatment.
Q.
Ok.
Q.
You didn't see or did you see where the lads went after they had hit Tony?
R.
No, I just see him kicking him and that, I got lost you know, I just I carried on, you know what I mean, they were still kicking him.
Q.
Can you remember seeing anyone else in that area at that time?
R.
No.
Q. 34.08
What time are we talking about do you feel when you left the Lattice House.
R.
That was...
Q.
Not the Lattice House beg your pardon the Cellar Bar?
R.
Err, I think, I lost track of the time you know really.
Q.
I mean what tine they call time at the Cellar Bar when you, it usually starts moving....
R.
They usually have last orders at one o'clock out while I was at the hospital I am sure that she said that was about quarter to one at the hospital so I think I didn't....
Q.
Might have been quarter, one forty five, well I don't know.
R.
Unless that was shut early you know.
Q.
So...
Q.
You didn't see any trouble down there?
R.
No, that's why we go down there, cause we don't go round the town, the pubs in town very often, cause you always getting packed and everybody pushing about, we go for a drink up the Wild Fowler and then sometimes we might go to the New Inn, not very often and straight down to the Cellar Bar, get a later drink in there, go home and that's it you know. Evening out with the lads, make a change.
Q.
Alright.
Q. 35.15
How well do you know Tony?
R.
I, he live, I live next door to him for four years but only the last year I sort of really got know him as a friend.
Q.
Is he, is he trappy is he a bit loud? When you say he's a Londoner and he's sort of.... R.
Yeah, just a typical Londoner really...
Q.
Yeah, full of, full of the old...
R.
Yeah kind spirit.
Q.
Yeah
R.
He wouldn't hurt a fly though.
Q.
No.
R.
But he's just probably got a bit of a mouth and that.
Q.
Would you have a go at someone if they have a go at you, are you the sort that will have a go at somebody?
R.
No no. I mean I've never been hit before you know I just walk away that don’t interest me.
Q.
I haven't got anything else to say at the minute have you?
Q.
No, not at the moment no.
Q.
No.
Q.
Not at the moment.
Q
Something else you want to say?
R.
No.
Q.
Mr. CROSBY?
Sol.
No.
Q. 36.08
Can you describe what these blokes were wearing can you? Were they young blokes?
R.
Yeah, around our age.
Q.
Which is?
R.
Twenty three to twenty eight something like that could be....
Q.
They are not kids, I mean they are not your six, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen and nineteen year old that sort of, you feel they were older than that?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Were they wearing jeans do you remember?
R.
I honestly can't say, probably jeans yeah.
Q.
Did you notice their tops jumpers or what?
R.
No, I can't remember.
Q. 36.37
And where did they come from when you said they went across the Tuesday Market Place?
R.
Where?
Q.
Where did they come from, cause you said you were going down, you were going towards the job centre where ever it is...
R.
That's it yeah, and they come from the Tuesday. Market Place across.
Q.
Across from which direction?
R.
Sort of, we was at that corner and I see them, say that was the car park the actual car park, the side of the car park at the corner.
Q.
Look say this table is the Tuesday Market Place...
R.
Yeah
Q
And the table top sort of left hand corner is where you are walking; you've got the Cellar Bar over there.
R. The Cellar Bar is down here yeah...
Q.
Which, which way did they come from?
R.
From about here and I was there right and I see them walking....
Q.
You've got the Maids Head here; you know the Maids don't you...
R.
Yeah....
Q.
And you've got the Dukes Head....
R.
Yeah...
Q.
So by pointing there....
R.
They didn't come out of the Maids I don't think, I think they come from the car park.
Q.
From the car park?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Like as if they had been in, perhaps in a motor, did you hear a car door slam or anything like that?
R.
No.
Q.
They didn't come, well did they come up from behind you as if they had come from the Cellar Bar? Or don't you know?
R.
I don't know
Q.
Which side of the road were you; you were on the Tudor Rose side?
R.
Yeah.
Q. 37.46
Did they cross the road to come to you?
R.
Yeah I think they did, yeah, yeah.
They was either walking up the road or they crossed the road because yeah they did. Yeah.
Q.
Ok.
Q.
Right....
Sol. Did they say anything to you apart from you know the comments that you have already said in your interview, did they say any other words spoken?
R.
Err, just you know, you’ve had a kicking now it's your mates turn
Sol.
Was it just one of them saying that or all three of them saying it?
R.
They was just laughing and sort of a bit recklessly you know.
Q.
Was, I mean did you have a lot of blood, all over your face?
R.
Yeah, loads, yeah loads and loads and loads and loads...
Q.
So it was obvious you had had a kicking, what I am saying is you couldn't miss the face that you had had a kicking?
R.
No not really (laughs).
Sol.
Was it smart casual dress they were wearing or scruffy casual?
R.
Smart, definitely smart.
Q.
You mentioned the accents earlier on, or what they sounded like.
R.
Yeah sort off, it took, I see you've had a kicking you know they didn't sort of speak Norfolk if you know what I mean.
Q.
Unless it was they were taking the Mick, I see you had a kicking your turn old boy sort of thing?
R.
Yeah could be like that yeah.
Q.
Whichever way I mean, do you think it was a non Norfolk accent or somebody putting on an act?
R.
It's hard to say really. Like I say I just didn't want no hassle I'd had enough.
Q.
And Tony and you immediately ran nobody turned, you didn't turn to face him to have a go that was just a straight run....
R.
No, no, 'I didn't want nothing I didn't want no hassle.
Q. 39.25
And Tony was the same or did he run straight away or turn round and have a go..,.
R.
Tony run and they was catching him up and he turned round and I don't know whether they hit him then, yeah they started kicking him or hitting him then he run again um towards the Lattice House.
Q.
Ok we are going to have to leave it there for now. I just, did you want to make a written statement at the moment?
R.
No.
Q.
Ok, serve you with the notice which we explained to you before, do you want that.
Sol.
Yeah...
Right I'll leave that number.... the time is two ten and....
Q.
The interview is now being terminated....
Q.
We will terminate the interview.
G SEWELL SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN
PLACE:
TIME: DATE: 020391
WITNESS TO SIGNATURE: G SEWELL
OFFICERS SIGNATURE: DS NEWTON
Sunday 20 January 2008
Re: TC
With regards to my comments about Tony Crown it is true he was involved in 2 incidents prior to Tony Gormans murder. The police never interviewed him as a suspect and it was about a week after the murder that he gave a statement. I had already been charged by then. Now let me make it clear Tony Crown didn't murder Anthony Gorman. The point I'm trying to make is, if the police were to do a proper investigation surely they should of been keen to speak to the man who had the initial arguement with Gorman. A man who other witnesses said knocked Gorman down the stairs outside the club.
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