Monday 18 February 2008
Sunday 17 February 2008
RE: My last interview before been charged with Murder.
I have jumped from my 1st to my 4th and last interview. The only reason apart from they take so long to copy, is there is nothing of note in the 2nd and 3rd interviews. I continued to say I only left the club once. I want to get more witness statements posted first
Please bear in mind this is a Murder inquiry and a normal person should presume all avenues of enquiry would be open to investigation. Well you would wouldn’t you? So why weren’t they?
Just try and imagine that your interviewing a suspect for a brutal murder. What sort of questions would you ask? I know if I had been trying to get to the bottom of things it wouldn’t have been like any of my interviews.
Shelley Mitchelson the girl who comes closest to the attack describes one of the assailants as wearing a blue and white hooped rugby shirt. Was I or for that matter ANYONE ever questioned about it at that time? The answer is a resounding NO, NEVER. In any of my 4 taped interviews was I ever asked if I spoke to Sewell immediately prior to the attack, remember Sewell stated the attackers spoke to him and Gorman first. NO NEVER. I was only ever made aware that Rod Moore had in fact been chasing me ten minutes before the end of my final interview. 15 minutes before the end I’m told I’m supposed to have been with Karl. Four months into the investigation, when things were going wrong for the Police and after being released from prison I’m then told I’m supposed to have been with Gary Withers a man I did not even know. I will speak more about Withers when I discuss the blue and white hooped rugby shirt later. I hope you can see how co-operative I was when I’m asked about ID parades. I didn’t have anything to hide. I was also adamant about forensic evidence, something that proved right much later.
Let me clear up the bit about drugs, I had taken both steroids and speed in the past, I was honest and open about it I had not taken speed for over 4 months and I had not taken steriods for more like 18 months. My blood was taken when I was 1st arrested, I presume to see whether I had infact taken any. The results were negative for all drugs and negative for alcohol. I will post results later.
Please bear in mind this is a Murder inquiry and a normal person should presume all avenues of enquiry would be open to investigation. Well you would wouldn’t you? So why weren’t they?
Just try and imagine that your interviewing a suspect for a brutal murder. What sort of questions would you ask? I know if I had been trying to get to the bottom of things it wouldn’t have been like any of my interviews.
Shelley Mitchelson the girl who comes closest to the attack describes one of the assailants as wearing a blue and white hooped rugby shirt. Was I or for that matter ANYONE ever questioned about it at that time? The answer is a resounding NO, NEVER. In any of my 4 taped interviews was I ever asked if I spoke to Sewell immediately prior to the attack, remember Sewell stated the attackers spoke to him and Gorman first. NO NEVER. I was only ever made aware that Rod Moore had in fact been chasing me ten minutes before the end of my final interview. 15 minutes before the end I’m told I’m supposed to have been with Karl. Four months into the investigation, when things were going wrong for the Police and after being released from prison I’m then told I’m supposed to have been with Gary Withers a man I did not even know. I will speak more about Withers when I discuss the blue and white hooped rugby shirt later. I hope you can see how co-operative I was when I’m asked about ID parades. I didn’t have anything to hide. I was also adamant about forensic evidence, something that proved right much later.
Let me clear up the bit about drugs, I had taken both steroids and speed in the past, I was honest and open about it I had not taken speed for over 4 months and I had not taken steriods for more like 18 months. My blood was taken when I was 1st arrested, I presume to see whether I had infact taken any. The results were negative for all drugs and negative for alcohol. I will post results later.
My 4th and final interview
MICHAEL ANDREW TEAL
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 29 13011962
OCCUPATION: LORRY DRIVER
Who states: - This statement consisting of pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED:
(SIGNED)
PERSON INTERVIEWED: PLACE OF INTERVIEW: DATE OF INTERVIEW: TIME COMMENCED: 1 TAPE REFERENCE NO: MASTER TAPE NO: INTERVIEWING OFFICER(S): OTHER PERSON (S) PRESET:
Michael Andrew TEAL
INTERVIEW ROOM NO. 1
Kings Lynn Police Station
Tuesday 5th March 1991 2.49p.m. TIME CONCLUDED: 3.21p.m.
DA/421/91
Det. Con. FROST Kings Lynn CID
Dt. Sgt. LEES - Hunstanton
Alan Charlton - Solicitor
This interview is being tape recorded, the time is 2.49p.m., on the afternoon of Tuesday the 5th of March 1991, the interview is taking place in Interview Room No. 1 at King's Lynn Police Station. I am Detective Constable FROST of King's Lynn C.I.D. Also present. Detective Sergeant LEES and I'm stationed at Hunstanton.
Michael Andrew TEAL, born 13.1.1962, 37 George Street, King's Lynn.
Alan CHARLTON, Solicitor.
At the conclusion of this interview you will be handed a notice that explains that will happen to the tapes, do you understand that?
R:
Yes.
Q:
O.k., I have to tell you that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so but what you say may be given in evidence, do you understand that Michael?
R.
Yes.
Q:
Do you understand that you are still under arrest on suspicion of murder?
R:
Yes (clears throat), yes.
Q:
Thank you, obviously you have had an opportunity to speak to your Solicitor who is present, here goes, several things we want to ask you Michael, o.k., about this allegation, we've, in the past interviews we've gone through various thins together, o.k.?
First of all, can you tell me are you left handed or right handed?
R:
Right handed.
1.28
Q:
You're right handed? o.k. Now I know we've been through it before, bear with us, we want to go through certain aspects again, o.k.?
R:
Yes.
Q:
Now... we all know about the incident at the top of the stairs, o.k.? Where, we'll mention it that you headbutted SEWELL, yes?
R:
Yes.
Q:
What did you do immediately after that incident?
2.01
R:
I went back downstairs.....
Q:
Right if we take it nice and slowly.... you went back downstairs?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
O.k., who was at the top of the stairs that you can remember when you headbutted SEWELL?
2.14
R,
Rod MOORE....
Q:
Yes,
R:
I'm not sure about everyone else.
Q:
O.k., well......
R:
There was people there but, you know, I can't remember.
Q:
What did Rod MOORE do?
R:
He tried to restrain me, he tried.. he grabbed hold of me I think.
2.30
Q:
When you went down the stairs, Mickey, what did he do?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
You don't know?
R:
Presumably followed me, I'm not sure.
0:
So you go down the stairs, what did you do then?
R:
I went into the Cellar Bar,
Q:
Yeah,
2.45
R:
I think I might have wiped my head with something....
Q:
Yes.
R:
Rod MOORE must have come in then because he give me a bottle of beer or give me a drink.... erm, as I was leaving he give me some money.
Q:
Right if you just hold it there. Do you remember who you spoke to inside the Cellar Bar at that stage?
3.09
R:
No.
Q:
Where abouts exactly where you?
R:
In front of the bar, I think.
3.16
Q:
Cos the bars fairly long in the Cellar Bar, so was it on the right hand side almost down the right.......
R:
.... Side, this end, in front of it.
Q:
So, what, you're talking about the entrance door.....
R:
To the door end.
Q:
To the door end? So you're saying there’s Rod, because he bought you... did he buy you a drink, or did he give you a drink, or....?
3.30
R:
He give me a drink.
Q:
And do you know where he got that drink from?
R:
No, the bar I think
Q:
O.k., you're certain you're saying that Rod was there? You say you wiped yourself with something?
R:
I think I did.
3.44
Q:
Do you know what?
R:
I don't know what it was, I think I put something to my head or it might have just been my hand, but I'm sure I either wiped it with something or wiped it with my hand.
Q:
You say you might have wiped it with something, where would you have got that something from?
R:
Off the bar probably, I don't know.
Q:
Can you recollect anybody giving you some ice, does that mean anything to you?
4.00
R:
No. .
(mumbles)
Q:
It’s been suggested that somebody gave you someone of the barmaids gave you some ice....
R:
Was it in a cloth or summit?
Q:
Yeah.
R:
If it might... I don't know if it had ice in it then, but maybe a cloth.
Q:
Can you remember.....?
4.15
R:
No, I remember get.... you know, like I say either wiping my hand, my head with my hand or with a cloth, I can't really remember now.
Q:
What sort of state were you in at that stage?.... I mean, I not talking.. I'm talking about, er, injuries, blood, that sort of thing?
4.32
R:
There was a lot of blood.
Q:
Where?
R:
Flowing down my face and into my mouth, erm, all on my shirt.
Q:
Whose blood would that have been?
R:
Mine.
4.44
Q.
It was your blood?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Then you came down the stairs after the assault on SEWELL,....were you bleeding?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was it going into your mouth then?
R:
Yeah.
5.00
Q:
O.k. Right, so we're in the bar, you and Rod, you can't remember who else?
R:
Hayley GARRIGAN was in the bar.
Q:
There was she?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
You don't know where she was?
5.15
R:
She was in there though.
Q:
Was she by herself?
R:
I think so, yeah.
Q:
O.k. You then left, did you?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
How long were you in the bar for, coming down after the assault on SEWELL; to leaving?
R:
Couple of minutes.
5.34
Q:
Couple of minutes, that's all?
R:
Yeah, I told you, not very long at all.
Q:
No longer than...
R:
I said no longer than five minutes, I don't believe it was longer than five minutes.
5.43
Q:
O.k. then, what did you do then?
R:
I went upstairs.
Q:
With?
R:
Hayley.
Q:
Right, if you just take it back a bit. How did you come to be with Hayley?
5.59
R:
I'd been talking to her prior to this incident, I think she might have been left up there by herself, erm, she's a mate of mine, she's a mate of my wife’s.
Q:
So what was the reas, so what was the reason for you going leaving the Cellar Bar with Hayley?
6.15
R:
I was just going home with her.
Q:
Where'd she live?
R:
She lives at Tennyson Avenue, not going home to her house, but going out with her, I was either going to walk her home or get her a taxi.
Q:
Did she mention anything about that at all to you?
6.32
R:
Can't remember.
Q:
You can't remember?
R:
No.
Q:
O.k.
R:
I've done it before, you know what I mean.
Q:
Right, take us then from leaving the Cellar Bar, right, and if there's anything I want to ask, I'll stop you.
6.46
R:
As I remember, I left with Hayley, erm, I got maybe ten... I can't remember if Rod MOORE was following me or summit, but I'd got about ten yards twenty yards away from the steps and Rory came along.... Rory I told you about yesterday.
7.04
Q:
This is the Bouncer?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was that the first time you'd seen Rory?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
So, you're talking about......
R:
... it was the first and only time I saw him that night.
Q:
.... ten yards?
R:
Ten, twenty yards, not far from the top of the steps....
Q:
Not far from....
R:
.... towards the Market Place.
7.19
Q:
I see did you speak to Rory?
R:
In passing....can't remember what I said, he said summit about...he calls everybody 'bruver', he might have said something...'alright bruver?' or something, I don't know.
7.32
Q:
O.k., so you carry on, where's Hayley now?
R:
Probably a yard or so behind, I don't know or with me....jus...
Q:
A yard or so behind?
7.44
R:
Well maybe walking a bit quicker than her....
Q:
Alright then, carry on from there.
R:
And I can't remember if Rod MOORE said summit to me... he must have been there cos I mean, I think he said something to me, I can't remember what.
Q;
So...it... by now, you're, you're well outside from the Cellar Bar, you're walking towards.........
8.04
R: Market Place...
Q:
....Tuesday Market Place you haven't reached the Tuesday Market Place?
R:
No.
Q:
O.k.
R:
And I was walking, I probably got onto the Market Place, maybe thirty yards onto it, I'm not sure, and I was walking diagonally to where the
Lloyds Bank is.....
Q:
Here...
R:
Err; I saw one of the lads that was with SEWELL and GORGAN, GORMAN, whatever his name is...walking towards the Maids from Lloyds Bank cash machine....
8.39
Q:
So here you were walking from the direction of Lloyds cash machine, towards the Maids was there.....
R:
As far I remember, yeah.
8.45
Q:
Was he in f.....err, it's difficult to explain, isn't it.... so you're coming at... towards an arrow are you?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
And where would that arrow point to, so you know, if he's coming one way.....
R:
...so if Lloyds Bank is there...
Q:
Yeah.
R:
....and the Maids is that way as I'm walking that way, he was walking that way.
9.04
Q:
So where was he heading towards?
That would be the easiest way.
R:
To the Dukes....
Q:
Towards the Dukes?
R:
.....down that way, yeah, as far as I remember he was.
Q:
Where was Hayley at this stage?
R:
Some way behind me, I think.
Q:
How far behind?
9.15
I don't know.
Q:
Where abouts was Rod?
R:
I don't know, I see Rod after I left the... entered the Market Place if you know what I mean where he said something to me while I was walking, I didn't....
Q:
He said something to you?
R:
I think he did.
Q:
Any idea what?
9.30
R:
Erm......can't really; I can't be precise about what he said.
Q:
Is there something that you think he said?
R:
Well....
Q:
Are you saying that you can't be precise?
R:
Well, yeah, I mean like I think he said a lot of things but I wouldn't want to say them in case you think that I'm saying he did say that and he didn't.
Q:
Well, how...how can I say, I mean obviously we'd like to know what he said, and if something you think he said.
R:
Rod MOORE said something to me and I think he would be perhaps the best person to ask about what he said.
10.05
Q:
Yeah... Rod has been interviewed, and he's given his account, err....
R:
Well, if he's been clear on what he said, I'm not going to be any clearer.
10.15
Q:
Yeah, but we just wanted to find if what you're saying is the same as what he's saying, you know.
R:
I can't remember what he said.
Q:
You can't remember?
Q:
O.k., so Hayley’s how far back at this stage, if we go back to....?
R:
When I lef...when I left Hayley, I don't know where she was, I didn't even look to see where she was.
10.33
Q:
O.k., so what did you do then?
R:
I spoke this lad as far as I can remember, he said something to me first I can't remember what it was, I asked him where SEWELL was, he said he'd gone home, I said, 'where was home?', he said...I don't know whether he said a road off Columbia Way, some road off Columbia Way, and then I started running.
10.58
Q:
So where exactly did you meet this lad? Are we talking about the lad who’d walked, just walked, it was SEWELL's mate who'd just walked from Lloyds Bank, where exactly did you meet him?
R:
About Lloyds Bank, somewhere there.
Q:
Hang on let me get this right, you say Lloyds we're not referring at all to Barclays Bank? Because Barclays Bank.....
R:
I don't know where about Barclays Bank is... 11.18
Q: That's right we were talking about Lloyds Bank, that’s fair enough, just clear that up.
R:
He was somewhere near.... somewhere Lloyds Bank.
Q:
Somewhere near Lloyds Bank?
R: Yeah.
Q:
Did he has been as far as the High Street?
11.30
R:
Where's the High Street, what where McDonalds and that is?
Q:
Yeah.
R:
No.
Q:
No, so you hadn't entered that part of it?
R:
No.
Q:
So what did you do then?
11.39
R:
Like I said earlier, I ran down the back of Lloyds Bank, between Lloyds Bank and Marks & Spencer’s, got to the end of the road and I turned left towards the Lattice House.
11.48
0:
Did you see anyone on that route?
R:
No, I don't know, I can't remember.
Q:
So what, going back.....
R:
There might have been somebody there, I can't remember.
Q:
Yeah, o.k., but what you're telling me, that from time of the assault on SEWELL at the top of the stairs of the Cellar Bar, until, what, correct me if I'm wrong, cos you then come straight back down, straight into the Cellar Bar, where you see Rod MOORE, Rod, sorry. Rod MOORE, he somehow gets you a drink, yes?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
You see Hayley GARRIGAN, yes?
You then leave the Cellar Bar with Hayley GARRIGAN, and that time there was no more than five minutes from the time coming down the stairs into the Cellar Bar and leaving the Cellar Bar?
12.40
R:
I don't believe it was longer than five minutes.
Q:
I mean something that might help, what did you have to drink in there?
R:
I think it was a Lager, let me just help you a little bit more, my opinion is that it was no longer than five minutes, I said that from the very outset of all of the interviews, Hayley GARRIGAN, Rod MOORE, any of the bar staff might be able to help you there, alright on time, but as my opinion as I recall it was a very short distance of time, which I said by five minutes meaning five minutes I could judge, because any longer than that would have been quite a long time. I can't think of anything else I did in there over, then take a few mouthfuls of beer, get paid and I left, and as far as I recall it was less than five minutes.
13.21
Q: Do you remember what you and Rod were talking about?
R:
No, in fact if we was talking about anything it would have been something very brief, I certainly didn't stop and have conversation with anybody.
Q:
No, because you weren't in there long enough?
R:
No I don't believe I was in there long enough.
Q:
To have a proper conversation?
R:
To have a proper conversation, no.
13.40
Q:
Did you have a proper conversation with Hayley at that time?
R:
No, I don't believe so.
Q:
And you didn't go in any, in any other part of that bar or the Club, rather than what you described to us?
R:
I don't believe I did, no.
13.56
Q:
O.k......
Q
When you came down the stairs after the incident, what would, who would your mood then?
Were you angry?
R:
A little bit annoyed, I expect.
Q:
Yeah, yeah... did you boast to anybody that you'd just done something?
R;
Not as far as I remember.
Q:
You can't remember doing anything like that?
R:
Nar, I wouldn't boast about, I don't believe I would, and I don't believe I did.
Q:
No.
1426
R:
As I said to you all along, my, for me, the best thing for me that you can do is ask other people, I said that all the time, alright, everything’s been rather vague for me, alright, I've not been able to remember my state of mind, what I was thinking, what I was... and that's why I've looked for you to do that for me, I’m not in a position to ask people you are alright?
14.49
Q:
That is being done, I assure you of that that is being done.
Q:
What we're doing now is just trying to corroborate what you were saying, trying to help you (inaudible - talking across each other)
R:
I mean, I'm not trying to hide anything from anybody, I've asked you on a number of occasions to check with other people on times and what I've said and that, cos, I int trying to say I've said this, I've said that, I've looked to you to look at other people and ask them to do it for me.....
Q:
And that is being done; I'll tell you that now.
Q;
Y, you're obviously ... th...there must be a stage that you can't remember things is it? From what you're saying because you're asking us to find out. .
15.21
R:
It’s not a case of can't remember things, you don't want me to say things that I'm not too sure about, do you or anything like that......?
Q:
No no no....no-ones asked you to say that....
R:
......I'm trying to say, I'm trying to say what I can remember, and I've give you every name I can ever remember, hoping that they can just give that little bit more for your picture, because the pictures going help me in the long run, nobody else, alright.
15.41
Q:
No, I think there's about fifty odd people been seen up to yet, you know, we’re just... trying to get the whole picture....
R:
I know what you're doing, alright, but for me it’s got to be done a little bit better.
Q:
Well there's hell and all people, there's about forty of our blokes working on it at the moment, and that's being done as quickly as possibly can and all this new information keep on coming all the time which is why we, you know.....keep...
Q:
Coming back to spinks here...
Q:
.... see...
R:
I don't mind, I don't mind honestly, but I, you know, if I can't remember what I was feeling or, how heavy I was breathing, it's not because I don't want to remember, it's I can't remember alright?
16.13
Q:
You know Carl SxxxxxxN?
R:
Yeah
Q:
How well do you know Carl?
R:
Well.
Q:
Good mates?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
So, you would know if Carl SxxxxxxN was about, perhaps?
R:
I know he was about, I've told you he was about.
Q:
Alright, let’s go through where Carl was.
16.31
I know we keep harping back to this assault, when you were assaulting SEWELL, did you see Carl SxxxxxxN?
R:
No.
Q:
When you come down the stairs, did you see Carl SxxxxxxN?
R:
Not as I can remember, no.
Q:
When you went into the Cellar Bar, was Carl SxxxxxxN there?
R:
Can't remember... can't remember seeing him, all I can remember of Carl SxxxxxxN, and I've already told you is, he came over to me what I was speaking to Hayley GARRIGAN, and that is the only time we spoke I think in the whole evening.
17.00
Q:
At what point was that?
R:
That was after I'd ejected GORMAN...
Q:
Yes
R:
And coming back in I was speaking to Hayley GARRIGAN.
Q:
And this was before the incident with SEWELL?
R:
This was before the incident with SEWELL, yeah.
Q:
So just recap, what did Carl say to you?
R:
He came over and said there’s summit about trouble outside, I can't remember what he said, I know he said summit about trouble and GORMAN outside,
Q:
Is that the last time you saw Carl SxxxxxxN?
R:
That’s the only time I can remember seeing him or having any conversation with him.
Q:
Can you remember what Carl was wearing?
R:
He might have had summit red on... that's all I can remember, I've already thought about that, I think he may have had either a red jumper or red sweatshirt, I can't remember what his trousers were or anything like that, for some reason I've got red in my mind.
17.47
Q:
Was he with anyone?
R:
When he came over to me he weren't with anybody.
Q:
So, what I'm trying to think, was he part of a group of people or anything like that?
R:
Not when I saw him, but saying that, his mate Fez was in there, so pres.... I can't remember seeing them in the Cellar Bar during the evening.
18.07
Q:
Did you see Fez from the time of throwing GORMAN out to the rest of the evening, the rest of the morning?
R:
I saw Fez when after throwing GORMAN out, Carl SxxxxxxN came to me and said there's trouble outside.....
Q:
Yes.
R:
....I came outside and I think Fez was near the bottom of the stairs.
Q:
Doing what?
R:
Doing nothing. There was a lot of people on the stairs.
Q:
When you, when you came back down the stairs after the assault on SEWELL, o.k., we've gone through that I know, but I'm just trying to piece every bit together, how many people do you th.... or what was the stairway like, regarding people on it.
18.46
R:
When I first came out there was a lot of people on the stairs, after the incident with SEWELL, the stairs were perhaps were empty or maybe one or two people coming out, by then the Club, as far as I can remember the Club was empty or maybe a few people milling about.
Q:
So, err, that wasn't packed?
R:
No, not after, not when I went back down the stairs I don't believe it was, no.
Q:
What about when you went up the stairs, with the... and you spoke to SEWELL?
R:
When I, yeah, that seemed to be quite busy then, there was a lot of people there.
19.18
Q:
When you say busy, how would you describe.......
(inaudible talking across each other)
R:
... stairs, and it’s hard to say, but the stairs would seem like they were full or people trying to get up and leave.
Q:
Did you have to pull people back or push people to one side to go up the stairs, something like that?
R:
When I was up the St.... maybe there was other people on the stairs, when I had the thing with SEWELL, me and him were face to face and there might have been people around me, I didn't have to push anybody to get to SEWELL, but the stairs had been full.
19.49
Q:
Yeah, I think Mr FROST and Mr NEWTON told you yesterday that er, certain persons had identified you attacking Mr GORMAN, er, well that same person has also identified Mr SxxxxxxN as one of the other people.... would that be...
R:
Carl SxxxxxxN was not with me ever....
Q:
Last night....
R:
Not last night.
Q:
(Inaudible conversations crossing again) ...one at the moment.
20.13
R:
Carl SxxxxxxN was not with me, after he spoke to me and said there was trouble; I had no contact with him whatsoever.
Q:
So as far as you were concerned there’s no way... this person (inaudible)
R:
There's no way I was with Carl SxxxxxxN.
Q:
At all.
R:
At all.
(Pause)
Q:
I think, obviously you know exactly, I mean we've told you things, the position, I mean it doesn’t need me to explain that, I'm sure you can rough it out for yourself I mean we've obviously tried together to piece together as far as you’re concerned, everything you can tell us with regards to your movements, who you saw.....
R:
I can only be sure of my movements.
Q:
...at that time.
R:
....I can’t be sure of anybody else’s, Carl SxxxxxxN was not with me, ever that evening, he came up to me once and spoke to me and that was it.
21.13
Q:
Can we recap something up, I'm sorry haven't been on any of the interviews so I don't know, you know when you run round, er down by the Bank and then turned left to go towards the Lattice House, did you see Mr GORMAN on the road there?
R:
What I saw was a crowd of people around him, I didn't see him face, I saw the clothes that I recognised were his, I saw his brightly coloured Rugby shirt on, a Police car, and a Policeman with him.
Q:
And did you say anything at that particular stage.
R:
I said something about I was looking for his mate.
21.48
Q:
And you were looking for his mate for what reason?
R:
Just, well at the time, I didn't know he'd been cut like I had, I'd been cut and I and I was going after him.
Q:
What to see how he was or to give him some more?
R:
Well, I would of... whatever came.
Q:
Yeah.
22.06
R:
But when I was running I was by myself there was nobody with me.
Q:
And I think at some stage you could have by, by Rod weren't you?
R:
I think the first time I saw Rod after leaving the Club he was in a Police car and Mick (inaudible).
Q:
Can you recall seeing Rod at the time where Mr GORMAN was lying on the ground with the Policeman there?
R:
No.
Q:
You can't recall seeing there at the time?
22.29
R:
He wasn't th...no, no I never saw him.
Q:
You never saw him there. So the first time you saw him was when....
R:
In the Police car.
Q:
.....they stopped in the Police car, yeah. Can you recall seeing MR WILLIAMSON anywhere?
R:
I'm not sure if he was with Rod.
Q:
This is Neil?
R:
Neil WILLIAMSON.
Q:
Neil WILLIAMSON....
R:
I think he might have been with Rod, I... I don' t know, and I can remember seeing Rod, cos he spoke to me, and whether Neil WILLIAMSON was with him in the Police car, I don't know.
22.58
Q:
When you saw Mr GORMAN laying on the floor, did you recognise him at all?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
You did?
Q:
Through his clothes, you mean?
R:
Yeah, I recognised his clothes.
Q:
Yeah, what was your, what was your reaction, what did you think?
R:
I didn't think anything; I certainly didn't know what had happened to him.
Q:
Did you see any blood about there?
R:
No, no
Q:
You didn't see any blood about there?
R: No, no.
(Pause)
23.32
Q;
I think Mr FROST and Mr NEWTON have already explained about this witness who (inaudible) seen you, and what was your reaction to that, how did you, what do you say about that?
R:
That's a lie.
Q:
That's a lie?
R:
Yeah, and like I was saying earlier, I can't, if you'll know exactly the details, as I understood it yesterday, a witness said he saw me and you described another, somebody who I said I thought was Rod MOORE remember that?
Q:
Yes.
R:
With another chasing him, they heard noises but didn't see anything, and that same person said he saw me run back and with Rod MOORE, by the s...he said the two same people come back and I said something, that is a lie alright, Rod MOORE, when I run that person. Rod MOORE must have been in the Police car then, cos as I ran by that person, I was by myself, so just look at that as well because that is where you can see that they're lying, anybody said that they saw me run by the body with another person who they described as Rod MOORE is lying again because Rod MOORE was already in the Police car.
2434
Q:
No, I think what, what’s happened, run, you know when you ran the car park, in between the Banks, and then turned left. Rod MOORE was running behind you then, up towards the Lattice House where the body was and you apparently stopped there and Rod was still some way behind you then, and you carried on and then Rod carried on behind you... (Inaudible - crossed conversations)
R:
Well I weren't aware of Rod or anywhere near him.
Q:
You weren't?
R:
No.
25.00
Q: (inaudible -crossed conversation)
R:
Like I say, the first time I saw Rod MOORE was he was in front of me or coming alongside me in the Police car.
Q:
And that’s the first time you recall seeing him?
R:
That’s the only time I saw him.
Q:
You weren't aware, you weren’t aware that he was behind you at any stage?
R:
NO.
Q:
Not even on the Tuesday Market Place?
R:
No.
Q:
You didn't speak to him on the Tuesday Market Place?
25.19
R:
He said something to me as I left with Hayley...
Q:
Yeah.
R:
... and that’s the only time I saw him or spoke to him.
Q:
When you left the Club, were you in an angry mood?
R:
It’s hard to say, I must have been.
Q:
Right from the, from the, you know, interviews I've had, it would appear that you, you were not in a very good mood and you were out to try and find this bloke, would that be right?
25.49
R:
Well I don't know how anybody can say I was angry, you know what I mean, by, by my actions or what, you know, as I remember it I was just getting away doing my own thing, I weren't screaming I'm going to kill someone or whatever, I just went off, at first with Hayley, and then I took it into my head I was going to go and see the bloke......I didn't even know he'd been injured cos all the blood that was about I thought was mine.
26.17
Q:
You're obviously a big bloke, and a trainer, do you take any drugs at all?
R:
No.
Q:
None, none, you know, steroids, anything like that?
R:
I have done.
Q:
You have done.
Do you take any other sort of drugs, any Speed or anything like that.....?
R:
No, no.
Q:
....you don't, you don't not at all.
R:
I have done, but don't now.
Q:
You didn't take any on that night in question?
R:
No.
26.35
Q:
Were you drunk?
No.
Q:
How much do you think you had to drink that evening?
R:
Couple of pints, I remember, I had a pint of Lager Shandy when I first got there.
Q:
Which was about what time that was erm....?
R:
About half past eight.
Q:
Yeah.
R:
I remember having a couple or, couple of these beers I never had before, "Sol" or something call them, and a Southern Comfort I think and Coke, I was far from drunk.
27.16
Q:
And as far as you were concerned you only the left the Club on one occasion?
R:
On one occasion, that was the only time I left, yeah.
Q:
Cos you know what the inference is of course... that...
(Conversations crossed)
R:
Yeah I heard it now, you told me yesterday.
Q:
.... We have to it to you.
R:
And like I told you yesterday, anybody that said they see me doing other than what I did, what I've told you I did was lying.
27.38
Q:
Is that, you left the Club after the assault on SEWELL, you went, and lets be (?) about this, I mean this is what the inference is that you then Murdered GORMAN, with other people, come back to the Club, and then left with Hayley.
27.58
R:
All I can say to you is what I've told you already and like I said yesterday anybody that said they see me other, doing other than what I've told you, is lying and for whatever reason, I don't know, and like I said to you at the very onset, whatever happened to him happened quickly, alright, I said that before I knew any of this had gone on, and like I said to the Solicitor before the tape recording, perhaps the people that were around the body were the people that did the offence, aw, I don't know, I'm trying to look...help you....
Q:
Well like I said....
R:
Like I said, you, you came to, when I said about erm, Eamon PAYNE yesterday, and you said, oh he went to make a phone call and it had to go to Norwich, and it had to be all this, can you remember all that yesterday?
Q:
That’s right, yeah.
R:Eamon PAYNE wasn't there when the Police car was there, so I've, like I've already said, perhaps the Police car stumbled on what had happened, I don't believe that was a, a call that went to Norwich and went somewhere else and then went wherever and it come to him, perhaps he stumbled on that, like I said I think it all happened very quickly and the people that were around that body should be bloody questioned a little bit, you know, more than they have done probably, and certainly the people that said that they saw me running anywhere near the Lattice, chasing him, have got to be looked at.....I can't be more open than I am, I've sat in that cell all yesterday thinking should I go tell him to, should I go tell him to see the people that were at the body, because, I know it wasn't me, alright, I can't do your job for you, you've got to go do it, and certainly anybody that said they see me doing other than what I said, is lying..(Pause)... I told you how quickly I think it must have happened, and for me it’s either people that were at the scene at the time when the Policeman stumbled along em, because like your Sergeant NEWTON said yesterday, why should anybody name me?, why should anybody name me? cos they've got to be covering something, they've got to be covering somebody, that's why they should name me, perhaps they was at the scene and they were the people that did it.
29.48 3
Q: Well you're hardly the sort of bloke they would name though, Mickey...
R:
When people are on a bloody murder charge, they'll do anything, won't they?
For God's sake, fuckin, don't just sit back there smirking, get out there and do your job, that's what’s pissing me off.
Q:
The jobs being done.
R:
It’s obviously not being done because .I've been here fucking four days now, I don't mind, I'll stay here every day because I know someone’s out there looking but by the time I get charged, and I think well that's all you, you've stopped Iooking that’s the day I'm going to start getting pissed off, alright while you’re out there looking, I'm happy, I might not seem happy, but I am happy but the day you slap a charge on me and there’s someone out that whose done that I won't be fuckin happy.
30.30
Q:
Can you think of anything eIse?
R:
Not at this stage, no.
Q:
We've about covered all we want....
Q:
We want to talk about, er, an Identification Parade, now, do you want to speak to your Solicitor first about this?
Solicitor:
Do you want to explain what you're going to do first, then if need be, we'll talk, or do you want to talk now, it’s up to you?
30.50
R:
For me, I don't care what Parades I go on, honestly, I've got nothing to hide I'll go on any sort of Parade you want, I mean if you think it’s unwise that I should, I'll listen to you, but I mean for me, you know I'll do whatever anybody asks.
31.06
Q:
There's basic questions I'll have to ask you initially, like are you willing to attend an Identification Parade.... and then ask you who you would like to attend that parade, in other words, your Solicitor, o.k., and then we get you to sign this, which basically says you are prepared to attend.
Solicitor:
If you don't, basically, the other thing is you don't agree to an Identification Parade, I suspect then the Police authorities would be looking to think about a different form of Identification...which is....
R:
I put it... I don't care what....
Solicitor:
...which is, sorry, listen to me for a moment, which is less likely to be satisfactory? Because it will be you and you alone that somebody will be ask to look at.
R:
Like I said I'll go on any sort of parade if it helps.
Q:
I'll also ask you are you intending to (?) identification?
R:
Yes I will.
Q:
Do you want to have a few minutes or....? Solicitor:
Yes, I think we better.
R:
O.k.
Solicitor:
Just a few minutes.
Q:
Right, we'll conclude this......
Q:
O.k. as I say, conclude the interview
Q:
Yeah, we'll conclude this interview.
Is there anything you wish to clarify or add with regards to what’s been said in this interview?
R:
No.
Q:
Do you wish to make a written statement?
32.14
R:
No.
Q:
Right I shall serve you with a Notice that explains to you what will happen to the tapes, this interview is now going to be concluded, and the time is now 3.21p.m.
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 29 13011962
OCCUPATION: LORRY DRIVER
Who states: - This statement consisting of pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED:
(SIGNED)
PERSON INTERVIEWED: PLACE OF INTERVIEW: DATE OF INTERVIEW: TIME COMMENCED: 1 TAPE REFERENCE NO: MASTER TAPE NO: INTERVIEWING OFFICER(S): OTHER PERSON (S) PRESET:
Michael Andrew TEAL
INTERVIEW ROOM NO. 1
Kings Lynn Police Station
Tuesday 5th March 1991 2.49p.m. TIME CONCLUDED: 3.21p.m.
DA/421/91
Det. Con. FROST Kings Lynn CID
Dt. Sgt. LEES - Hunstanton
Alan Charlton - Solicitor
This interview is being tape recorded, the time is 2.49p.m., on the afternoon of Tuesday the 5th of March 1991, the interview is taking place in Interview Room No. 1 at King's Lynn Police Station. I am Detective Constable FROST of King's Lynn C.I.D. Also present. Detective Sergeant LEES and I'm stationed at Hunstanton.
Michael Andrew TEAL, born 13.1.1962, 37 George Street, King's Lynn.
Alan CHARLTON, Solicitor.
At the conclusion of this interview you will be handed a notice that explains that will happen to the tapes, do you understand that?
R:
Yes.
Q:
O.k., I have to tell you that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so but what you say may be given in evidence, do you understand that Michael?
R.
Yes.
Q:
Do you understand that you are still under arrest on suspicion of murder?
R:
Yes (clears throat), yes.
Q:
Thank you, obviously you have had an opportunity to speak to your Solicitor who is present, here goes, several things we want to ask you Michael, o.k., about this allegation, we've, in the past interviews we've gone through various thins together, o.k.?
First of all, can you tell me are you left handed or right handed?
R:
Right handed.
1.28
Q:
You're right handed? o.k. Now I know we've been through it before, bear with us, we want to go through certain aspects again, o.k.?
R:
Yes.
Q:
Now... we all know about the incident at the top of the stairs, o.k.? Where, we'll mention it that you headbutted SEWELL, yes?
R:
Yes.
Q:
What did you do immediately after that incident?
2.01
R:
I went back downstairs.....
Q:
Right if we take it nice and slowly.... you went back downstairs?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
O.k., who was at the top of the stairs that you can remember when you headbutted SEWELL?
2.14
R,
Rod MOORE....
Q:
Yes,
R:
I'm not sure about everyone else.
Q:
O.k., well......
R:
There was people there but, you know, I can't remember.
Q:
What did Rod MOORE do?
R:
He tried to restrain me, he tried.. he grabbed hold of me I think.
2.30
Q:
When you went down the stairs, Mickey, what did he do?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
You don't know?
R:
Presumably followed me, I'm not sure.
0:
So you go down the stairs, what did you do then?
R:
I went into the Cellar Bar,
Q:
Yeah,
2.45
R:
I think I might have wiped my head with something....
Q:
Yes.
R:
Rod MOORE must have come in then because he give me a bottle of beer or give me a drink.... erm, as I was leaving he give me some money.
Q:
Right if you just hold it there. Do you remember who you spoke to inside the Cellar Bar at that stage?
3.09
R:
No.
Q:
Where abouts exactly where you?
R:
In front of the bar, I think.
3.16
Q:
Cos the bars fairly long in the Cellar Bar, so was it on the right hand side almost down the right.......
R:
.... Side, this end, in front of it.
Q:
So, what, you're talking about the entrance door.....
R:
To the door end.
Q:
To the door end? So you're saying there’s Rod, because he bought you... did he buy you a drink, or did he give you a drink, or....?
3.30
R:
He give me a drink.
Q:
And do you know where he got that drink from?
R:
No, the bar I think
Q:
O.k., you're certain you're saying that Rod was there? You say you wiped yourself with something?
R:
I think I did.
3.44
Q:
Do you know what?
R:
I don't know what it was, I think I put something to my head or it might have just been my hand, but I'm sure I either wiped it with something or wiped it with my hand.
Q:
You say you might have wiped it with something, where would you have got that something from?
R:
Off the bar probably, I don't know.
Q:
Can you recollect anybody giving you some ice, does that mean anything to you?
4.00
R:
No. .
(mumbles)
Q:
It’s been suggested that somebody gave you someone of the barmaids gave you some ice....
R:
Was it in a cloth or summit?
Q:
Yeah.
R:
If it might... I don't know if it had ice in it then, but maybe a cloth.
Q:
Can you remember.....?
4.15
R:
No, I remember get.... you know, like I say either wiping my hand, my head with my hand or with a cloth, I can't really remember now.
Q:
What sort of state were you in at that stage?.... I mean, I not talking.. I'm talking about, er, injuries, blood, that sort of thing?
4.32
R:
There was a lot of blood.
Q:
Where?
R:
Flowing down my face and into my mouth, erm, all on my shirt.
Q:
Whose blood would that have been?
R:
Mine.
4.44
Q.
It was your blood?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Then you came down the stairs after the assault on SEWELL,....were you bleeding?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was it going into your mouth then?
R:
Yeah.
5.00
Q:
O.k. Right, so we're in the bar, you and Rod, you can't remember who else?
R:
Hayley GARRIGAN was in the bar.
Q:
There was she?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
You don't know where she was?
5.15
R:
She was in there though.
Q:
Was she by herself?
R:
I think so, yeah.
Q:
O.k. You then left, did you?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
How long were you in the bar for, coming down after the assault on SEWELL; to leaving?
R:
Couple of minutes.
5.34
Q:
Couple of minutes, that's all?
R:
Yeah, I told you, not very long at all.
Q:
No longer than...
R:
I said no longer than five minutes, I don't believe it was longer than five minutes.
5.43
Q:
O.k. then, what did you do then?
R:
I went upstairs.
Q:
With?
R:
Hayley.
Q:
Right, if you just take it back a bit. How did you come to be with Hayley?
5.59
R:
I'd been talking to her prior to this incident, I think she might have been left up there by herself, erm, she's a mate of mine, she's a mate of my wife’s.
Q:
So what was the reas, so what was the reason for you going leaving the Cellar Bar with Hayley?
6.15
R:
I was just going home with her.
Q:
Where'd she live?
R:
She lives at Tennyson Avenue, not going home to her house, but going out with her, I was either going to walk her home or get her a taxi.
Q:
Did she mention anything about that at all to you?
6.32
R:
Can't remember.
Q:
You can't remember?
R:
No.
Q:
O.k.
R:
I've done it before, you know what I mean.
Q:
Right, take us then from leaving the Cellar Bar, right, and if there's anything I want to ask, I'll stop you.
6.46
R:
As I remember, I left with Hayley, erm, I got maybe ten... I can't remember if Rod MOORE was following me or summit, but I'd got about ten yards twenty yards away from the steps and Rory came along.... Rory I told you about yesterday.
7.04
Q:
This is the Bouncer?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was that the first time you'd seen Rory?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
So, you're talking about......
R:
... it was the first and only time I saw him that night.
Q:
.... ten yards?
R:
Ten, twenty yards, not far from the top of the steps....
Q:
Not far from....
R:
.... towards the Market Place.
7.19
Q:
I see did you speak to Rory?
R:
In passing....can't remember what I said, he said summit about...he calls everybody 'bruver', he might have said something...'alright bruver?' or something, I don't know.
7.32
Q:
O.k., so you carry on, where's Hayley now?
R:
Probably a yard or so behind, I don't know or with me....jus...
Q:
A yard or so behind?
7.44
R:
Well maybe walking a bit quicker than her....
Q:
Alright then, carry on from there.
R:
And I can't remember if Rod MOORE said summit to me... he must have been there cos I mean, I think he said something to me, I can't remember what.
Q;
So...it... by now, you're, you're well outside from the Cellar Bar, you're walking towards.........
8.04
R: Market Place...
Q:
....Tuesday Market Place you haven't reached the Tuesday Market Place?
R:
No.
Q:
O.k.
R:
And I was walking, I probably got onto the Market Place, maybe thirty yards onto it, I'm not sure, and I was walking diagonally to where the
Lloyds Bank is.....
Q:
Here...
R:
Err; I saw one of the lads that was with SEWELL and GORGAN, GORMAN, whatever his name is...walking towards the Maids from Lloyds Bank cash machine....
8.39
Q:
So here you were walking from the direction of Lloyds cash machine, towards the Maids was there.....
R:
As far I remember, yeah.
8.45
Q:
Was he in f.....err, it's difficult to explain, isn't it.... so you're coming at... towards an arrow are you?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
And where would that arrow point to, so you know, if he's coming one way.....
R:
...so if Lloyds Bank is there...
Q:
Yeah.
R:
....and the Maids is that way as I'm walking that way, he was walking that way.
9.04
Q:
So where was he heading towards?
That would be the easiest way.
R:
To the Dukes....
Q:
Towards the Dukes?
R:
.....down that way, yeah, as far as I remember he was.
Q:
Where was Hayley at this stage?
R:
Some way behind me, I think.
Q:
How far behind?
9.15
I don't know.
Q:
Where abouts was Rod?
R:
I don't know, I see Rod after I left the... entered the Market Place if you know what I mean where he said something to me while I was walking, I didn't....
Q:
He said something to you?
R:
I think he did.
Q:
Any idea what?
9.30
R:
Erm......can't really; I can't be precise about what he said.
Q:
Is there something that you think he said?
R:
Well....
Q:
Are you saying that you can't be precise?
R:
Well, yeah, I mean like I think he said a lot of things but I wouldn't want to say them in case you think that I'm saying he did say that and he didn't.
Q:
Well, how...how can I say, I mean obviously we'd like to know what he said, and if something you think he said.
R:
Rod MOORE said something to me and I think he would be perhaps the best person to ask about what he said.
10.05
Q:
Yeah... Rod has been interviewed, and he's given his account, err....
R:
Well, if he's been clear on what he said, I'm not going to be any clearer.
10.15
Q:
Yeah, but we just wanted to find if what you're saying is the same as what he's saying, you know.
R:
I can't remember what he said.
Q:
You can't remember?
Q:
O.k., so Hayley’s how far back at this stage, if we go back to....?
R:
When I lef...when I left Hayley, I don't know where she was, I didn't even look to see where she was.
10.33
Q:
O.k., so what did you do then?
R:
I spoke this lad as far as I can remember, he said something to me first I can't remember what it was, I asked him where SEWELL was, he said he'd gone home, I said, 'where was home?', he said...I don't know whether he said a road off Columbia Way, some road off Columbia Way, and then I started running.
10.58
Q:
So where exactly did you meet this lad? Are we talking about the lad who’d walked, just walked, it was SEWELL's mate who'd just walked from Lloyds Bank, where exactly did you meet him?
R:
About Lloyds Bank, somewhere there.
Q:
Hang on let me get this right, you say Lloyds we're not referring at all to Barclays Bank? Because Barclays Bank.....
R:
I don't know where about Barclays Bank is... 11.18
Q: That's right we were talking about Lloyds Bank, that’s fair enough, just clear that up.
R:
He was somewhere near.... somewhere Lloyds Bank.
Q:
Somewhere near Lloyds Bank?
R: Yeah.
Q:
Did he has been as far as the High Street?
11.30
R:
Where's the High Street, what where McDonalds and that is?
Q:
Yeah.
R:
No.
Q:
No, so you hadn't entered that part of it?
R:
No.
Q:
So what did you do then?
11.39
R:
Like I said earlier, I ran down the back of Lloyds Bank, between Lloyds Bank and Marks & Spencer’s, got to the end of the road and I turned left towards the Lattice House.
11.48
0:
Did you see anyone on that route?
R:
No, I don't know, I can't remember.
Q:
So what, going back.....
R:
There might have been somebody there, I can't remember.
Q:
Yeah, o.k., but what you're telling me, that from time of the assault on SEWELL at the top of the stairs of the Cellar Bar, until, what, correct me if I'm wrong, cos you then come straight back down, straight into the Cellar Bar, where you see Rod MOORE, Rod, sorry. Rod MOORE, he somehow gets you a drink, yes?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
You see Hayley GARRIGAN, yes?
You then leave the Cellar Bar with Hayley GARRIGAN, and that time there was no more than five minutes from the time coming down the stairs into the Cellar Bar and leaving the Cellar Bar?
12.40
R:
I don't believe it was longer than five minutes.
Q:
I mean something that might help, what did you have to drink in there?
R:
I think it was a Lager, let me just help you a little bit more, my opinion is that it was no longer than five minutes, I said that from the very outset of all of the interviews, Hayley GARRIGAN, Rod MOORE, any of the bar staff might be able to help you there, alright on time, but as my opinion as I recall it was a very short distance of time, which I said by five minutes meaning five minutes I could judge, because any longer than that would have been quite a long time. I can't think of anything else I did in there over, then take a few mouthfuls of beer, get paid and I left, and as far as I recall it was less than five minutes.
13.21
Q: Do you remember what you and Rod were talking about?
R:
No, in fact if we was talking about anything it would have been something very brief, I certainly didn't stop and have conversation with anybody.
Q:
No, because you weren't in there long enough?
R:
No I don't believe I was in there long enough.
Q:
To have a proper conversation?
R:
To have a proper conversation, no.
13.40
Q:
Did you have a proper conversation with Hayley at that time?
R:
No, I don't believe so.
Q:
And you didn't go in any, in any other part of that bar or the Club, rather than what you described to us?
R:
I don't believe I did, no.
13.56
Q:
O.k......
Q
When you came down the stairs after the incident, what would, who would your mood then?
Were you angry?
R:
A little bit annoyed, I expect.
Q:
Yeah, yeah... did you boast to anybody that you'd just done something?
R;
Not as far as I remember.
Q:
You can't remember doing anything like that?
R:
Nar, I wouldn't boast about, I don't believe I would, and I don't believe I did.
Q:
No.
1426
R:
As I said to you all along, my, for me, the best thing for me that you can do is ask other people, I said that all the time, alright, everything’s been rather vague for me, alright, I've not been able to remember my state of mind, what I was thinking, what I was... and that's why I've looked for you to do that for me, I’m not in a position to ask people you are alright?
14.49
Q:
That is being done, I assure you of that that is being done.
Q:
What we're doing now is just trying to corroborate what you were saying, trying to help you (inaudible - talking across each other)
R:
I mean, I'm not trying to hide anything from anybody, I've asked you on a number of occasions to check with other people on times and what I've said and that, cos, I int trying to say I've said this, I've said that, I've looked to you to look at other people and ask them to do it for me.....
Q:
And that is being done; I'll tell you that now.
Q;
Y, you're obviously ... th...there must be a stage that you can't remember things is it? From what you're saying because you're asking us to find out. .
15.21
R:
It’s not a case of can't remember things, you don't want me to say things that I'm not too sure about, do you or anything like that......?
Q:
No no no....no-ones asked you to say that....
R:
......I'm trying to say, I'm trying to say what I can remember, and I've give you every name I can ever remember, hoping that they can just give that little bit more for your picture, because the pictures going help me in the long run, nobody else, alright.
15.41
Q:
No, I think there's about fifty odd people been seen up to yet, you know, we’re just... trying to get the whole picture....
R:
I know what you're doing, alright, but for me it’s got to be done a little bit better.
Q:
Well there's hell and all people, there's about forty of our blokes working on it at the moment, and that's being done as quickly as possibly can and all this new information keep on coming all the time which is why we, you know.....keep...
Q:
Coming back to spinks here...
Q:
.... see...
R:
I don't mind, I don't mind honestly, but I, you know, if I can't remember what I was feeling or, how heavy I was breathing, it's not because I don't want to remember, it's I can't remember alright?
16.13
Q:
You know Carl SxxxxxxN?
R:
Yeah
Q:
How well do you know Carl?
R:
Well.
Q:
Good mates?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
So, you would know if Carl SxxxxxxN was about, perhaps?
R:
I know he was about, I've told you he was about.
Q:
Alright, let’s go through where Carl was.
16.31
I know we keep harping back to this assault, when you were assaulting SEWELL, did you see Carl SxxxxxxN?
R:
No.
Q:
When you come down the stairs, did you see Carl SxxxxxxN?
R:
Not as I can remember, no.
Q:
When you went into the Cellar Bar, was Carl SxxxxxxN there?
R:
Can't remember... can't remember seeing him, all I can remember of Carl SxxxxxxN, and I've already told you is, he came over to me what I was speaking to Hayley GARRIGAN, and that is the only time we spoke I think in the whole evening.
17.00
Q:
At what point was that?
R:
That was after I'd ejected GORMAN...
Q:
Yes
R:
And coming back in I was speaking to Hayley GARRIGAN.
Q:
And this was before the incident with SEWELL?
R:
This was before the incident with SEWELL, yeah.
Q:
So just recap, what did Carl say to you?
R:
He came over and said there’s summit about trouble outside, I can't remember what he said, I know he said summit about trouble and GORMAN outside,
Q:
Is that the last time you saw Carl SxxxxxxN?
R:
That’s the only time I can remember seeing him or having any conversation with him.
Q:
Can you remember what Carl was wearing?
R:
He might have had summit red on... that's all I can remember, I've already thought about that, I think he may have had either a red jumper or red sweatshirt, I can't remember what his trousers were or anything like that, for some reason I've got red in my mind.
17.47
Q:
Was he with anyone?
R:
When he came over to me he weren't with anybody.
Q:
So, what I'm trying to think, was he part of a group of people or anything like that?
R:
Not when I saw him, but saying that, his mate Fez was in there, so pres.... I can't remember seeing them in the Cellar Bar during the evening.
18.07
Q:
Did you see Fez from the time of throwing GORMAN out to the rest of the evening, the rest of the morning?
R:
I saw Fez when after throwing GORMAN out, Carl SxxxxxxN came to me and said there's trouble outside.....
Q:
Yes.
R:
....I came outside and I think Fez was near the bottom of the stairs.
Q:
Doing what?
R:
Doing nothing. There was a lot of people on the stairs.
Q:
When you, when you came back down the stairs after the assault on SEWELL, o.k., we've gone through that I know, but I'm just trying to piece every bit together, how many people do you th.... or what was the stairway like, regarding people on it.
18.46
R:
When I first came out there was a lot of people on the stairs, after the incident with SEWELL, the stairs were perhaps were empty or maybe one or two people coming out, by then the Club, as far as I can remember the Club was empty or maybe a few people milling about.
Q:
So, err, that wasn't packed?
R:
No, not after, not when I went back down the stairs I don't believe it was, no.
Q:
What about when you went up the stairs, with the... and you spoke to SEWELL?
R:
When I, yeah, that seemed to be quite busy then, there was a lot of people there.
19.18
Q:
When you say busy, how would you describe.......
(inaudible talking across each other)
R:
... stairs, and it’s hard to say, but the stairs would seem like they were full or people trying to get up and leave.
Q:
Did you have to pull people back or push people to one side to go up the stairs, something like that?
R:
When I was up the St.... maybe there was other people on the stairs, when I had the thing with SEWELL, me and him were face to face and there might have been people around me, I didn't have to push anybody to get to SEWELL, but the stairs had been full.
19.49
Q:
Yeah, I think Mr FROST and Mr NEWTON told you yesterday that er, certain persons had identified you attacking Mr GORMAN, er, well that same person has also identified Mr SxxxxxxN as one of the other people.... would that be...
R:
Carl SxxxxxxN was not with me ever....
Q:
Last night....
R:
Not last night.
Q:
(Inaudible conversations crossing again) ...one at the moment.
20.13
R:
Carl SxxxxxxN was not with me, after he spoke to me and said there was trouble; I had no contact with him whatsoever.
Q:
So as far as you were concerned there’s no way... this person (inaudible)
R:
There's no way I was with Carl SxxxxxxN.
Q:
At all.
R:
At all.
(Pause)
Q:
I think, obviously you know exactly, I mean we've told you things, the position, I mean it doesn’t need me to explain that, I'm sure you can rough it out for yourself I mean we've obviously tried together to piece together as far as you’re concerned, everything you can tell us with regards to your movements, who you saw.....
R:
I can only be sure of my movements.
Q:
...at that time.
R:
....I can’t be sure of anybody else’s, Carl SxxxxxxN was not with me, ever that evening, he came up to me once and spoke to me and that was it.
21.13
Q:
Can we recap something up, I'm sorry haven't been on any of the interviews so I don't know, you know when you run round, er down by the Bank and then turned left to go towards the Lattice House, did you see Mr GORMAN on the road there?
R:
What I saw was a crowd of people around him, I didn't see him face, I saw the clothes that I recognised were his, I saw his brightly coloured Rugby shirt on, a Police car, and a Policeman with him.
Q:
And did you say anything at that particular stage.
R:
I said something about I was looking for his mate.
21.48
Q:
And you were looking for his mate for what reason?
R:
Just, well at the time, I didn't know he'd been cut like I had, I'd been cut and I and I was going after him.
Q:
What to see how he was or to give him some more?
R:
Well, I would of... whatever came.
Q:
Yeah.
22.06
R:
But when I was running I was by myself there was nobody with me.
Q:
And I think at some stage you could have by, by Rod weren't you?
R:
I think the first time I saw Rod after leaving the Club he was in a Police car and Mick (inaudible).
Q:
Can you recall seeing Rod at the time where Mr GORMAN was lying on the ground with the Policeman there?
R:
No.
Q:
You can't recall seeing there at the time?
22.29
R:
He wasn't th...no, no I never saw him.
Q:
You never saw him there. So the first time you saw him was when....
R:
In the Police car.
Q:
.....they stopped in the Police car, yeah. Can you recall seeing MR WILLIAMSON anywhere?
R:
I'm not sure if he was with Rod.
Q:
This is Neil?
R:
Neil WILLIAMSON.
Q:
Neil WILLIAMSON....
R:
I think he might have been with Rod, I... I don' t know, and I can remember seeing Rod, cos he spoke to me, and whether Neil WILLIAMSON was with him in the Police car, I don't know.
22.58
Q:
When you saw Mr GORMAN laying on the floor, did you recognise him at all?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
You did?
Q:
Through his clothes, you mean?
R:
Yeah, I recognised his clothes.
Q:
Yeah, what was your, what was your reaction, what did you think?
R:
I didn't think anything; I certainly didn't know what had happened to him.
Q:
Did you see any blood about there?
R:
No, no
Q:
You didn't see any blood about there?
R: No, no.
(Pause)
23.32
Q;
I think Mr FROST and Mr NEWTON have already explained about this witness who (inaudible) seen you, and what was your reaction to that, how did you, what do you say about that?
R:
That's a lie.
Q:
That's a lie?
R:
Yeah, and like I was saying earlier, I can't, if you'll know exactly the details, as I understood it yesterday, a witness said he saw me and you described another, somebody who I said I thought was Rod MOORE remember that?
Q:
Yes.
R:
With another chasing him, they heard noises but didn't see anything, and that same person said he saw me run back and with Rod MOORE, by the s...he said the two same people come back and I said something, that is a lie alright, Rod MOORE, when I run that person. Rod MOORE must have been in the Police car then, cos as I ran by that person, I was by myself, so just look at that as well because that is where you can see that they're lying, anybody said that they saw me run by the body with another person who they described as Rod MOORE is lying again because Rod MOORE was already in the Police car.
2434
Q:
No, I think what, what’s happened, run, you know when you ran the car park, in between the Banks, and then turned left. Rod MOORE was running behind you then, up towards the Lattice House where the body was and you apparently stopped there and Rod was still some way behind you then, and you carried on and then Rod carried on behind you... (Inaudible - crossed conversations)
R:
Well I weren't aware of Rod or anywhere near him.
Q:
You weren't?
R:
No.
25.00
Q: (inaudible -crossed conversation)
R:
Like I say, the first time I saw Rod MOORE was he was in front of me or coming alongside me in the Police car.
Q:
And that’s the first time you recall seeing him?
R:
That’s the only time I saw him.
Q:
You weren't aware, you weren’t aware that he was behind you at any stage?
R:
NO.
Q:
Not even on the Tuesday Market Place?
R:
No.
Q:
You didn't speak to him on the Tuesday Market Place?
25.19
R:
He said something to me as I left with Hayley...
Q:
Yeah.
R:
... and that’s the only time I saw him or spoke to him.
Q:
When you left the Club, were you in an angry mood?
R:
It’s hard to say, I must have been.
Q:
Right from the, from the, you know, interviews I've had, it would appear that you, you were not in a very good mood and you were out to try and find this bloke, would that be right?
25.49
R:
Well I don't know how anybody can say I was angry, you know what I mean, by, by my actions or what, you know, as I remember it I was just getting away doing my own thing, I weren't screaming I'm going to kill someone or whatever, I just went off, at first with Hayley, and then I took it into my head I was going to go and see the bloke......I didn't even know he'd been injured cos all the blood that was about I thought was mine.
26.17
Q:
You're obviously a big bloke, and a trainer, do you take any drugs at all?
R:
No.
Q:
None, none, you know, steroids, anything like that?
R:
I have done.
Q:
You have done.
Do you take any other sort of drugs, any Speed or anything like that.....?
R:
No, no.
Q:
....you don't, you don't not at all.
R:
I have done, but don't now.
Q:
You didn't take any on that night in question?
R:
No.
26.35
Q:
Were you drunk?
No.
Q:
How much do you think you had to drink that evening?
R:
Couple of pints, I remember, I had a pint of Lager Shandy when I first got there.
Q:
Which was about what time that was erm....?
R:
About half past eight.
Q:
Yeah.
R:
I remember having a couple or, couple of these beers I never had before, "Sol" or something call them, and a Southern Comfort I think and Coke, I was far from drunk.
27.16
Q:
And as far as you were concerned you only the left the Club on one occasion?
R:
On one occasion, that was the only time I left, yeah.
Q:
Cos you know what the inference is of course... that...
(Conversations crossed)
R:
Yeah I heard it now, you told me yesterday.
Q:
.... We have to it to you.
R:
And like I told you yesterday, anybody that said they see me doing other than what I did, what I've told you I did was lying.
27.38
Q:
Is that, you left the Club after the assault on SEWELL, you went, and lets be (?) about this, I mean this is what the inference is that you then Murdered GORMAN, with other people, come back to the Club, and then left with Hayley.
27.58
R:
All I can say to you is what I've told you already and like I said yesterday anybody that said they see me other, doing other than what I've told you, is lying and for whatever reason, I don't know, and like I said to you at the very onset, whatever happened to him happened quickly, alright, I said that before I knew any of this had gone on, and like I said to the Solicitor before the tape recording, perhaps the people that were around the body were the people that did the offence, aw, I don't know, I'm trying to look...help you....
Q:
Well like I said....
R:
Like I said, you, you came to, when I said about erm, Eamon PAYNE yesterday, and you said, oh he went to make a phone call and it had to go to Norwich, and it had to be all this, can you remember all that yesterday?
Q:
That’s right, yeah.
R:Eamon PAYNE wasn't there when the Police car was there, so I've, like I've already said, perhaps the Police car stumbled on what had happened, I don't believe that was a, a call that went to Norwich and went somewhere else and then went wherever and it come to him, perhaps he stumbled on that, like I said I think it all happened very quickly and the people that were around that body should be bloody questioned a little bit, you know, more than they have done probably, and certainly the people that said that they saw me running anywhere near the Lattice, chasing him, have got to be looked at.....I can't be more open than I am, I've sat in that cell all yesterday thinking should I go tell him to, should I go tell him to see the people that were at the body, because, I know it wasn't me, alright, I can't do your job for you, you've got to go do it, and certainly anybody that said they see me doing other than what I said, is lying..(Pause)... I told you how quickly I think it must have happened, and for me it’s either people that were at the scene at the time when the Policeman stumbled along em, because like your Sergeant NEWTON said yesterday, why should anybody name me?, why should anybody name me? cos they've got to be covering something, they've got to be covering somebody, that's why they should name me, perhaps they was at the scene and they were the people that did it.
29.48 3
Q: Well you're hardly the sort of bloke they would name though, Mickey...
R:
When people are on a bloody murder charge, they'll do anything, won't they?
For God's sake, fuckin, don't just sit back there smirking, get out there and do your job, that's what’s pissing me off.
Q:
The jobs being done.
R:
It’s obviously not being done because .I've been here fucking four days now, I don't mind, I'll stay here every day because I know someone’s out there looking but by the time I get charged, and I think well that's all you, you've stopped Iooking that’s the day I'm going to start getting pissed off, alright while you’re out there looking, I'm happy, I might not seem happy, but I am happy but the day you slap a charge on me and there’s someone out that whose done that I won't be fuckin happy.
30.30
Q:
Can you think of anything eIse?
R:
Not at this stage, no.
Q:
We've about covered all we want....
Q:
We want to talk about, er, an Identification Parade, now, do you want to speak to your Solicitor first about this?
Solicitor:
Do you want to explain what you're going to do first, then if need be, we'll talk, or do you want to talk now, it’s up to you?
30.50
R:
For me, I don't care what Parades I go on, honestly, I've got nothing to hide I'll go on any sort of Parade you want, I mean if you think it’s unwise that I should, I'll listen to you, but I mean for me, you know I'll do whatever anybody asks.
31.06
Q:
There's basic questions I'll have to ask you initially, like are you willing to attend an Identification Parade.... and then ask you who you would like to attend that parade, in other words, your Solicitor, o.k., and then we get you to sign this, which basically says you are prepared to attend.
Solicitor:
If you don't, basically, the other thing is you don't agree to an Identification Parade, I suspect then the Police authorities would be looking to think about a different form of Identification...which is....
R:
I put it... I don't care what....
Solicitor:
...which is, sorry, listen to me for a moment, which is less likely to be satisfactory? Because it will be you and you alone that somebody will be ask to look at.
R:
Like I said I'll go on any sort of parade if it helps.
Q:
I'll also ask you are you intending to (?) identification?
R:
Yes I will.
Q:
Do you want to have a few minutes or....? Solicitor:
Yes, I think we better.
R:
O.k.
Solicitor:
Just a few minutes.
Q:
Right, we'll conclude this......
Q:
O.k. as I say, conclude the interview
Q:
Yeah, we'll conclude this interview.
Is there anything you wish to clarify or add with regards to what’s been said in this interview?
R:
No.
Q:
Do you wish to make a written statement?
32.14
R:
No.
Q:
Right I shall serve you with a Notice that explains to you what will happen to the tapes, this interview is now going to be concluded, and the time is now 3.21p.m.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)