Gary Sewell 2nd Taped Interview

NORFOLK POLICE HEADQUARTERS STATION
NAME: GARY SEWELL
ADDRESS:
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 23 11011968
OCCUPATION ENVIROMENTAL SEVICES TECHNICIAN
Who states:- This statement consisting of pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.

PERSON INTERVIEVIED: Gary William SEWELL.
PLACE OF INTERVIEW. Interview Room No. 2. Kings Lynn Police station. DATE OF INTERVIEW: 2nd March, 1991.
TIME COMMENCED: 1819 TIME CONCLUDED; 1903.
TAPE REFERENCE NUMBER(S) :> DA/424/91.
MASTER TAPE NUMBER(S); 1.
INTERVIEWING OFFICER (S); Detective Sergeant NEWTON Kings Lynn C.I.D. Detective Constable FROST Kings Lynn C.I.D.
ANY OTHER(S) PRESENT: Ray RANSOME - Solicitor of Kenneth BUSH & CO.

Q.
Okay I'll tell you at the end of this interview I'll serve you with another notice again which explains to you what happens to the tapes etc. You remember that from last time.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
We'll say that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Are you happy there's just the four of us in this room?
R.
Yeah.
Q. 1.07:
Okay we just want to clarify one or two points with you Gary.
R.
Yeah okay.
Q:
Firstly have you got a nickname?
R:
Have I got a nickname?
Q:
Yeah.
R.
No sometimes they used to call me Squirrel....
Q.
Yeah.
R:
When I used to work at Anglia Canners that's all.
Q.
Yeah and people call you Squirrel quite a bit still?
R.
No... Only when I used to work at Anglia Canners.
Q.
Yeah. Well your names come up.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
And they've used the nickname of Squirrel. Do you know anybody else that might have been in the Cellar Bar last night that might have been nicknamed Squirrel?
R.
No, no (inaudible mumbling).
Q:
(Inaudible).
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Okay let's. I just want to go back to something that, Happened in the Cellar Bar. When you were with Tony did he have a little bit of a problem with a chappie in there? Was there a little bit of a confrontation with somebody when Micky TEAL actually took him out of the Club towards the end there?

R.
I didn't know he took him out of the Club
Q: He took him out to the bottom of the stairs.
R:
No I don't, I don't know.
Q:
Well where were you then?
R:
When when was that then?
Q.
That was oh... not too far from the end, not too far before closing time.
R
I didn't know um Mick took him out there. I was probably just walking about.
Q:
You see what what Mick is saying that Tony got into a bit of a problem with a fella. .
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And he, he looked as if he was going to hit this fella.
R.
Yeah. .
Q.
So Micky TEAL gr... Got hold of him, took him outside.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And then kicked him out of the place basically.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Then a little while later Tony came back down and came back in.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Now do you remember him any of that?
R:
I, I didn't even know he'd got chucked out. I, no I didn't know he got chucked out of the place.
Q:
Not at all?
R.
No, not at all, honestly. I didn't know he get chucked out. All.. like I say all I know when we left (inaudible) I was waiting for Tony at the top of the stairs and er you know I waited a few minutes or so and I went down to see where he was and he was on, you know, sort of middle of the stairs with Carl SXXXXXXN.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
And Carl started to have a go at him and that and they were sort of exchanging sort of words and then Carl said; "I'll get Micky on to you, he'll sort you out;" you know or something like that so I said, "Come on Carl leave it out, we don't want no hassle and that. Went back down into the, the Cellar when, when Carl went down there to get Micky and I told Micky, "Look just leave it out, you've got to forget about it." And then I come up the stairs with Micky trying to sort of separate him so he didn't go up there because you know, up the stairs and I think Carl might have been behind, behind me and then Micky just grabbed hold of me round the neck.
4.03:
Q.
Where was Tony all this time?
R:
Well Tony, I think Tony went back up the stairs.
Q.
Is it not right that Micky TEAL had his arm round Tony and brought him up the stairs?
R.
I don't know.
Q.
And you were at the top and you started arguing and then TEAL grabbed hold or you and gave you a couple of head buts or whatever.
R.
I went down the stairs into the Cellar Bar and come up the stairs with, with err Micky.
Q
Um
R.
Yeah and then when I got up the stairs he grabbed hold of me and just sort of choked me very.... I couldn't breath
Q.
Ah-ha.
R:
And he just started head butting me.
Q.
Ah-ha.
R:
He just kept bang, bang, bang, bang, head butting me
Q:
What happened to your hands?
R:
I haven't got a clue you know, like when.....
Q:
Well (coughs) didn't you have a bit of a problem earlier on in the evening?
R:
Someone pushed me yeah, but I didn't hit no-one.
Q.
Well didn't you go and tell people that you'd hit somebody and showed them your hands?
R:
No, my hands like that all the time right and I said to Micky
Q.
Well let's have a look at your hands like that.
Q.
Not like that they're not.
R.
I mean they're all, they're all bruised and didn't Micky squeeze your hand?
5.17:
R.
No, no he didn't honestly.
Q.
Well there's more than one person has said....
R.
Yeah.
Q.
That you had had a bit of a problem.....
R: (Inaudible - mumbling).
Q:
In, in the toilet.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
With a bloke.
R:
And I told, I told you I said I told Micky about it and Micky said, "You you point him out to me and I'll go and have him.”
Q:
That’s, that's right.
R:
That's it.
Q.
And what happened in the toilet then
R.
Well he just sort of pushed me up against a wall.
Q.
This bloke did?
R
Yeah.
Q.
Why?
R.
Err, I don't know. I went up to the toilet right and Tony was talking to this bloke he knew, because his brother died not so long ago. Tony’s brother and he was talking to this bloke and about his brother and this bloke knew his brother right and they was chatting and that. I went up there and Tony said to me you know, "Fuck off Gary, I just want to, I just got to talk this bloke about my brother." I said.”Alright then mate;" and then this bloke said, "Yeah don't you start;" and pushed me up against the wall.
Q.
And did you hit him?
R:
No honestly.
Q.
Well what happened to your hands?
R:
That's, that's what happened you know when, in self defence.
Q.
I don't know Gary.
Q.
Self defence against what?
R:
Well Micky brought me up the stairs and grabbed hold of me.
Q.
Well, how're you going to get... Micky said you didn't hit him.
R:
Well I, I said to you I didn't think I hit Micky didn't I?
Q.
No, and he confirms that, he says you didn't hit him.
Q.
Gary look it is imperative, very very important we get the full story of what happened last night.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Obviously we want to find out who did this to your friend, okay?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And the only way we'll find out is if you tell us all the truth. If you've done something wrong then you've done something wrong and that's all there is to it.....
R.
I.
Q.
But we've got to get the full story. We we want more names out of you.You must know some more names.
R:
Honestly I don't know no more names honestly.
Q.
But, come on Gary look, the thing......
Q:
It's your mate at the end of the day.
R.
I know it's my mate and obviously it's cutting me up.
Q.
I know, but we want.....
Q:
So, let's have a few more names here.
R:
I don't know any, honesty that is the honest truth.
Q
You used that place; you're a Lynn lad aren't you?
R:
Yeah I...
Q:
You're you're lived there how old are you?
R:
Twenty-three.
Q:
You've got to know.
R:
I've lived there four years.
Q.
Lived where? In Lynn four years.
R.
Yeah four years.
Q.
Right.
R.
I've I've only just started going out down the Nigntclubs or down the Cellar Bar.
Q.
(Inaudible).
R.
With with Tony within the last year
Q:
Within a year you meet alot of people don't you in different places.
R:
I suppose you do, yeah.
Q.
You just have a chat and even if you know their nicknames. You know just try and think who. Who was at the top of the stairs when you got your hiding?
R.
I just don't know honestly. Honestly...
7.58:
Q:
Who was at the top of the stairs when you, before you went down to go and get Tony then?
Q.
I think Rob.... Robert WHITE he was up there.
Q.
Yeah.
R:
And that's all I think was up there, and that......
Q:
Well was there, was there many people up there?
R.
I don't know, I just... people were coming out you know, I didn't take no notice because you know, people were just leaving as usual when I was sort of waiting at the top of the stairs and Rob was up there as well and I thought well come on Ton and I went down to see where he was and he was half way down the stairs.
Q.
Arguing with Carl?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
About what?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
Do you know about a girl following him downstairs?
R.
No.
Q:
No.
R
No.
Q.
And Tony might have done it either accidentally or on purpose or whatever and he was getting the blame for this girl falling downstairs. Do you know anything about that?
R.
No, no not at all.
Q.
So where were you when all of this happened?
R:
I don't know, I was, I was probably up the top of the stairs by then. Honestly I, look I know nothing about that at all.
Q.
How much had you had to drink?
R.
About five pints.
Q.
So you weren't drunk then were you?
R
No.
Q.
Gary look those hands right...
R:
Alright then I'll tell you right. We was fucking about, hitting the wall alright, but I know I feel a cunt now, but we was messing about sort of jabbing the wall alright.
Q:
Which wall?
R.
The wall by the you know as you come down the stairs, the wall
Q.
In the Cellar Bar?
R:
Yeah. What go up like that.
Q.
Well whereabouts is that then Gary?
R:
What?
Q:
Where were you hitting the wall?
R.
Er you know those, no not, not them stairs, the stairs to the toilet.
Q.
So you'd been to the loo?
R:
That bloke....is it... that bloke sort of had a go at me and I was just angry do you know what I mean.
Q:
So you hit the wall?
R:
So I jabbed the wall a couple of times with my hand.
Q
What and done that?
R:
Yeah honest truth.
9:56:
Q.
Why?
R.
It's better than hitting someone in't it?
Q:
Well I suppose so, I think I'd rather put my hands in my pocket
(inaudible)
R:
Do you know what I mean?
Q:
Yeah, so you hit the wall?
R:
Yeah and that is the honest truth.
Q
So what did you do.....
Q:
But why didn't you tell us that to start with?
R.
I didn't think that was relevant.
Q.
Everything's relevant, everything you can think of, every little......
Q.
I mean when you're got somebody, somebody who's been killed by being beaten to death and you've got swollen hands, what are we supposed to think? I mean why didn't you come out and say, "I know I'm a bloody Fool, but I was hitting a wall?"
R.
(Inaudible – mumbling)
Q.
I know it's nice when it stops I suppose that's the only thing in that
Q.
So what did you do then go and see what did, did you go and see anyone about that. Did you tell anyone?
R. Yeah I to... I didn't tell Micky I hit a wall.
Q:
What did you say?
R:
I said to Micky, "You know, someone is sort of giving some hassle up there." I said, "He's got blond hair, sort of down like that Micky said, “If you see him tell me who he is and I’ll, I'll set about him."
Q:
You implied to Micky that you had hit the bloke then had a bit of grief with him did you?
R.
But I said to Mick you know I sort of hassled him back.
Q.
So you, to be the big man.
R. Yeah.
Q.
Is that what it is?
R:
Yeah. Just trying to stick up for myself in front of Micky you know.
Q:
Urn.
Q:
Why is that, why should you st... In front of him. I mean what's so special about him?
R
Oh he just.
Q:
Hard man?
R:
Yeah he's a hard man in't he, you know you don't want to feel small, you want to tell tell him that's someone’s has hassled you, but you don't want to feel small yourself do you?
Q.
And who was there when, when you were hitting the wall?
R.
Err I don't know, honestly.
Q:
Was Bob there?
R.
Rob might have been there, I don’t know
Q.
Rob...Rob you call him is it. Robert WHITE?
R.
Robert WHITE or Bob or Rob whatever
Q.
Have you um hit the wall before when you've had a drink?
R.
No
Q.
Um
R.
No
Q.
Well if you have you have.
R:
No I haven't.
Q.
If you want to get rid of your pent up aggression, what do you do? Do you hit the wall?
R:
Yeah, I don't usually get aggressed very much you know, but like I say....
Q.
But you're doing yourself a hell of a lot of damage doing that, a hell of a lot of damage aren’t you?
R.
Yeah, but its better now in't it.
12.06:
Q.
Look Gary, do you understand us when we say we want to know everything?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Every little thing that went on in that place?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Because we've got to build up a picture
R:
I know.
Q:
And every missing part of that jigsaw has got to be filled.
R:
That's right yeah.
Q.
So I mean we have been told....
R:
Yeah.
Q:
That Tony got booted out by Micky TEAL because he was having agro or was being aggressive towards somebody else.
R
Yeah well I don't know nothing about that at all. That is the honest
truth, I swear on my life that I don’t know nothing about him getting
(Inaudible mumbling).
Q.
Does Tony get aggressive?
R:
But he's just a typical Londoner, you got to know how to take him you know. He's sort of Cocky a bit, you know, a lad and that and you know.
12.49:
Q.
What else happened outside Gary that you hadn't told us? What hap... what else can you think of? Try and think, take your time.
R.
I can't think, honestly.
Q:
Keep, keep, try and think.
Q.
Its names of people who were at the top who may have followed you out. I mean these, you're telling us or you told us in the previous interview.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
That you were with Tony at near Level House near to the Tuesday Market Place down from the Maids or whatever
Q.
When three blokes who you'd never seen before.
R.
Yeah
Q.
Came up to you.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Now that takes a bit of believing that at that time of night.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Which you're looking at round about one o'clock time aren't you?
R.
Yeah probably, something like that.
Q.
Round about that time. Just happened to be there and when you think about it logically in that area, all the pubs were closed.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Yeah, and the only place that was open in that immediate area was the Cellar Bar?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Right?
R.
That's right.
Q.
The clubs would still be going strong...
R:. .
Yeah.
Q.
And they wouldn't be kicking out till two.
R
No.
Q;
So you, what we call.. that's the sort of the period of time where the pub people are generally home...
R.
Yeah.
Q:
You know and the Club people are inside...
R:
That's right yean.
Q:
So the only people you would think generally would be in that area are people who came from the Cellar Bar aren't there.
R:
Yeah.
Q;
I mean when you think about it logically that's about right isn't it?
R:
That's right yeah.
Q.
Now think about these boys now you, you visit the Cellar Bar how often?
R:
Once, once a month something like that.
Q:
Once every fortnight, once every month, somet.... around that. I was told once a fortnight, but do you say once a month?
R.
Once a month when I get paid usually.
Q.
Okay. Now just think these lads you must have seen them before. Just think who you know. Go through the names of people that were in that bar that you know.
R.
Er I know er Andrew, I can't think of his his last name he live by me.
Q.
Was he one of the three?
R:
No.
Q:
Right.
R.
Er there's a couple of his friends, I don't know the names of but they weren't none of the three neither.
Q:
Yeah.
R:
There was..... there was this...this lady Jill TED who used to work at Anglia Canners, she was there.
Q.
Where does Jill live, do you know?
R.
No.
15.30:
Q:
And who, who was she with any lads or..
R:
No I just see her there, said, "Hello Jill;"...
Q.:
Oh she was just in the bar and you... .
R.
Just talked to her. Er and also there was a couple of lads there, long hairs, is his name Wayne?
Q:
Yeah Wayne
R. He was there.
Q:
A bouncer, what Wayne and his brother?
R.
Yeah they used to bouncer alot as I used......
Q.
Yeah, yeah Wayne and Jay is his brother.
R.
Yeah they was there, but they weren't nothing to do with it...
Q.
No.
R.
(Inaudible) Er I can't think of anything else.
Q.
Well you obviously know Carl?
R.
Yeah Carl.
Q.
Carl SXXXXXXN was down there.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was he one of the three?
R:
No.
Q.
Are you absolutely certain? Are you absolutely certain?
Q.
Yeah that weren’t Carl.
Q.
Look, look definite. I mean look if, if you don't trying to protect people....
R:
I'm not trying to protect no-one
Q:
….Don t.
R:
Because he' s my mate.
Q.
Well that's right....
(Inaudible - all talking at once)
Q.
You've hit it in one. That's right.
Q.
(Inaudible) Let's let's throw some names at people that we know were there. Do you know Bobby HILLS?
R
No.
Q:
You don't know him?
R:
No.
Q-
Do you know Paul FELLOWS?
R:
No.
16.52:
Q:
Who else do we know that was at.....
Q:
Ricky LONG?
R:
No.
Q:
You don't know him either? I'm just going through names of people that we know that were in there.
Q.
Danny SHANE?
R:
Who?
Q:
Danny SHANE?
R.
No.
Q.
David STEWART?
R:
No.
Q:
(Inaudible) He's also know as Nimbo.
R.
No.
Q: .
N..N... Nimbo?
Q.
Nimmo.
R.
Nimmo.
Q:
Nimmo.
R:
I heard that name mentioned Nimmo. Now....
Q.
When?
R:
Through the evening I think when we was having that argument.
Q.
What argument?
R.
You know, when I tried to stop Micky from getting Tony. I thougnt, I thought I heard someone say Nimo.
17.37
Q:
Is he, is he a sort of tall, thin bloke?
R.
He can be described as that yes.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was he one of the people that attacked your mate?
R
No
Q.
Think about those three that attacked.....
R.
Have you got any photographs that I can see or something?
Q.
No.
Q:
Not at this stage no.
Q.
No.
Q:
Look.....
R:
Perhaps if I had something to jog my memory.....
10.07:
Q:
You've got to try and think of the three blokes, you're telling us that there were three blokes that came up and said, "Right you've had a hiding, now it's your mates turn;" or whatever.
R:
Yeah and I was just shitting myself honestly I just wanted to get out you know.
Q.
But I would imagine, I would have thought it's got to be somebody from the Cellar Bar wouldn't you think.....
R:
Yeah....
Q:
Logic....logically.
R:
So you know you said Tony got chucked out of the Cellar Bar?
Q
Yeah.
R.
Now if he got chucked out of the Cellar Bar what, these three, he could had.. had, why did you say he got checked out?
Q:
Sorry?
R:
Why did you say he got chucked out?
Q.
Because he was having a row with somebody or Micky thought he was going to hit somebody. It was sort of one these you know, he was shouting at somebody yet he was only about that far away from you know.
Q:
Nose to nose.....
Q:
Nose to nose sort of....
R:
What about that bloke who he was shouting at, could he have waited for Tony to got outside?
Q:
Well this is what we want.....
Q:
That's right we don't know who he is. Can you tell us who he was?
R:
No I, I didn't see no-one.
Q.
This is why it's so important to try and find everything.
R..
Yeah I didn't see no-one.
Q.
Because, at the and of the day what we want to do is we what to trace everyone and everyone's movement wno was in that area.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Last night. So we know where exactly averyone was.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Every second.
R.
I didn't know he had that arguement.
Q.
Going back to these three lads right?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Who come and spoke to you, alright. Think of any, any form of description however minor, anything about them that you can tell us.
19.42:
R.
I think a couple of them were tall, very tall.
Q:
What do you call tall?
R:
About my height maybe, just a little bit smaller or shorter.
Q:
What are you six foot?
R.
Six foot.
Q:
So about six foot?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
(Inaudible)
R:
And one of them was a bit shorter.
Q.
Yeah
R.
I know one of them was shorter.
Q.
What about their hair anything about the hair?
R.
It was sort of respectable haircut you know, nothing....
Q:
Yeah.
Q:
Earrings?
Q.
Do you know the colour of their hair?
R:
I'd say that was black, dark brown.
Q
Dark hair.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
All three? I mean were they neat haircuts? You know people who'd been to Barbers like you, got fairly neat haircuts or not?
R.
Yeah.
20.35:
Q;
Or kind of scruffy like mine.
R.
Yeah, yeah I mean you know the sort of thing......
R.
Yeah.
Q:
You. know rather than this which is just basically cut. Was it sort of styled hair or was it just cut?
R:
Yeah styled, hair that was styled hair. There's there's one face I can sort of picture it in my mind, but I can't explain it.
Q:
Well close your eyes and tell us, picture it.
Q:
Take your time, there's plenty of time.
R.
You know what I mean if I see some picture if I see it. I think they was eating something when they come up to us.
Q;
They were eating something?
R:
I think yeah.
Q:
Like what?
R:
I don't know, chips or something. I'm sur.. sure that someone had something in their hand. I'm sure.
Q.
Well you say something in their hand, are you sure it was food?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
It wasn't a weapon or anything.
R:
No food.
Q.
You reckon one of them had food? Now what's in that area at that time of night?
R.
Kebab, I don’t know.
Q.
Well that would have to come from there, that would have to come from Norfolk Street wouldn't it which is the nearest Kebab,.wouldn't it?
Q:
You've got two in Norfolk Street.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
But Norfolk Street's the nearest place aren't they?
R:
Norfolk Street, how far is that?
Q:
It's a little way when you consider that they're coming back into the Town aren't they.
R.
Yeah exactly so like I say. Tony had that row and then they, he got chucked out and they went out, then they could have come back and waited for him couldn't they?
22.23:
Q:
Well how would they know;? I can't read that, it doesn't seem right, I mean cause cause he could have gone any time in between them going to get the food and that....
(Inaudible - overtalking)
Q.
.... and if they were going to wait for him I would have suggested they would have either waited in the Club and followed him out or waited outside the club or somewhere. It's not likely that they would have gone and got some food...
R.
No
Q
....to come back is it?
R:
I thought, you know what I mean. I.
Q: Anyone wear glasses?
R:
No.
Q:
Anyone have any facial hair?
R:
No.
Q:
If you saw them how many of the three would you recognise again?
R..
Probably that one.
Q:
Just the one. Di... was he the leader do you feel?
R..
Yeah he's the one.
Q.
He was the one that did the talking?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
What again did he say?
R.
He said something like, like, "You've had a good kicking now, now.it's your turn;" to Tony, something like that you know
(inaudible - too quiet)
23.23:
Q:
Did he say, "You've had a good kicking;" or did he say, "You look as if you've had a good kicking?
R.
I can't remember, something about, "You've....." it could be, "You look like you've had a good kicking now it's you lot;" or "You've had a good kicking, now, now it's your turn."
Q.
You know about this accent you were talking about before....
R:
Yeah. That weren't you know it, oh, I don't know it just sounded sort of clear you know, sort of clear, no... no... no sort of slang, you know what I Mean.
Q.
Hmm.
R:
Like, "You've had a fucking good kicking;” you know like that, they pronounced everything right like that.
Q:
Did thev swear like that? Did they swear?
R.
They did swear yeah, I think he did swear yeah. You know what I mean, once he said that I just didn't want to know, I was off. Do you know what I mean?
Q.
Hmm
Q.
How did you get that other cut? I know you've obviously got the one with stitches in, what about the other side of your head? Where did you get that from?
R:
What?
Q:
The mark....
Q:
It's not a cut, it's just a mark. You've got a mark over your left eye as well on the forehead. A bit hi... a bit mo.... further out towards the temple. There.
Q:
There that's it.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Yeah it goes across here look.
Q:
That's it, that's it.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Probably done it messing about, I don't know, probably done it,, I don't know how I done it.
24.56:
Q.
Cause didn't you say to Micky when you was telling him about this problem you'd had in the toilet, did you say, have I got a black eye?"
R.
Yeah I said to him, have I, have I got a black eye?"
Q;
Had you been hit in the eye?
R.
No I was pushed up against a wall.
Q:
Sorry?
R.
When I got pushed up against a wall. Well I haven't got a black eye.
Q:
No.
R.
No.
Q:
Now do you know anything more about this lad who pushed you up against the wall?
R:
No,
Q.
Did you say something back to him I mean if you did I mean...
R:
I, I… I probably just said to him, "Alright then," you know, "Leave it out;" or "That ain't got nothing to do with you this is my mate Tony;" or something like that.
Q:
But Tony was talking to this lad.
R.
Who was talking to......
Q.
And they were, they were okay, there was no problem with them?
R.
No and Tony just got a bit of the hump with me because I said, -"Come on Ton, let's go downstairs now." And he said, "Look Gary;" he said, "This bloke was friendly with my brother who died;" he said, "I just thought I'd talk to him about my brother."
Q:
So he remained there talking did he?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
So wh... what point did you then go and hit the wall?
R.
Well that bloke pushed me up by the toilets and you know what I mean I was angry so I just hit the wall by the stairs....
Q.
So he would have seen this would he?
R: Well cause Tony was up here. To...
Q.
Yeah I know where you mean. Ton. ...Rob was Rob with you? Did Rob see you hit the wall?
R.
I don't know if he was there or not.
Q.
Well was he there? I mean you know when you leave the loo was he with you?
R.
No.
Q.
Have you before when Rob has been with you, hit the wall?
R.
No, I don't think so.
Q:
No?
R:
No.
We might have... you know have a laugh with each other playing about.
Q.
Do you know what you've done to your hands?
R:
Nothing. Bruised them.
Q.
Strange thing to do in't it, hit walls?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Hmm. What about some more names, think on. You must have been thinking about it while you've been down there surely? Down in the cells haven't you.
R.
I think what a nightmare it is, my mate's gone.
27.21:
Q:
It's a nightmare for you, but think about him and his family. That's, they're the people that are going through it and we've now got to try and catch whoever did it. So you've got to do your bit. Can you think of anything else?
Q.
If there's something that you're worried about, then you know there's nothing to be worried about I mean....
R:
Yeah I know, but I'd tell you everything to help you honestly. I just...
Q:
I mean did Tony say to you at all during the evening, "Cor look at him;" you know sort of, "He's a right bastard;" or anything like this at all where he might have had antagonism which you might not necessarily have known about, that he's had some problems in the past or that night?
R.
Sometimes when we've been out he's got a bit rowdy and you know I've had to say to him, you know he's said to me, "Look at that bastard;" you know and I'd say to him, "Look Tony shut up;" and he's alright, right right as rain. You just tell him to shut up, he's alright, but he he was like that. He was a bit, sort of a bit of a lad you know I mean....
Q:
Who has he had problems with before down there or anywhere else in Town?
R.
There's no there’s nowhere in particular you know what I mean, he'd just he'd just get a bit boisterous. Not towards any certain person. He just you know I mean you just had to sort of tell him to sort of shut up and that and then he was as right as rain again.
29.17:
Q.
When you left did you hear anybody walk up behind you? Did you look behind you to see what happening or anything?
R.
No I just, I didn't, I was just praying that. Honestly I was just, I couldn't believe it, I'd got all blood down my face, I just sort of kept walking on and the next thing you know I s... I.. Tony walked up to me or I see Tony and then we started walking and then like I say them lads came up and said something like, "Oh you've had a good kicking;" or "A fucking good kickinq, now it's your mates time, turn." And Tony replied something, but I don't know what he replied or no I said to them, "Piss off." They started running at Ton or they all started at Ton and that’s it Tony started running and so I just... Tony r... Tony run down there like that and flipped in the middle of the road. They caught him up and I run to the Gold Car Park to walk across there to get out of the way and then Tony was struggling with them and they was kicking and hitting him and he got away and run across there so I I come back again and started to walk down and I see him like turning up round about the Lattice House area and they were just kicking into him, but I just carried on. You know want I mean if I'd have gone up there I'd have probably got it as well wouldn't I?
30.43:
Q:
Yeah, but you can't think I mean you must have seen quite a little bit or ti...seen them for a little bit of time really, er? You saw them in thr..three or four different places didn't you?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
The initial contact, then in the beginning of the car park near the Lattice House and eventually when Tony was on the ground. I appreciate that you were getting further away....
R.
But when he was on the ground I was further.... .yeah.
Q.
I appreciate you were getting further away obviously, but you must, even if it's a colour of a jumper or something like that. What about wear wearing rugbv shirts. Were they wearing norm....
R:
I,I was wearing a rugby shirt.
Q.
You were yeah.
R:
Tony was wearing a rugby shirt.
Q:
Yeah and what about them?
Q:
Were they wearing coats or were they wearing jumpers?
R:
No, yeah I think probably they weren't wearing a coat I don't think, a jumper, I'd say a jumper or a smart shirt or something. I g... you see I, I didn't know it was to happen and so I, I weren't looking out for it if you know what I mean, so.....
Q:
Yeah, but you can recall things.
Q:
I mean really you don't recall an awful lot about anything that Happened last night do you?
R:
No.
Q.
I mean you think about it.
R:
No, I've, I've tried you know, I don't if it's because I got hit in the head, I don't know, but honestly whatever I try it my mind keeps going blank all the time, honestly.
32.03:
Q:
I just hope it's not a case that you're holding back on something that you know.
R.
No, I, I swear.... ' .
Q:
Because that would be very very sad if you are.
R.
Yeah I know it would because....
Q:
For any reason whatsoever if you are holding back it would be very very sad.
R.
Yeah I know, hon... honestly I ain't holding back. I want them people caught, but I... I can't help him....(crying) honestly I can't help.
Q.
It might come to you later on maybe.
R.
I tried. I just can't think.....
Q.
You reckon you've got one face in your mind, now just think about that face. As Mr. (inaudible) said before, close your eyes and just try and picture your fa...picture this face. Is it a fat face, is it a thin face.
R:
Sort of medium face, normal face. Sort of thinnish born structure,
structure you know.
Q:
A bit like mine?
R.
Yeah, actually I should say similar looking to you.
Q.
It weren't me though.
R:
(Laughs) No.... no honestly.
Q.
No I know what you mean, right. So that's a, that's a start isn't it?
R:
That's it yeah.
Q:
Now what else can you remember?
Q.
That don't help the tape Jack saying what you... that it's like you..
Q
Handsome, handsome. (Laughing).
Q:
I mean it's a fairly long face with sort of highish cheek bones and very angular perhaps er?
Q.
Has he got a big nose like that as well? (Laughing). No what about the nose, think about the nose. squashed nose, flat nose, pointed nose?
Q.
Was it a good looking bloke? was he pig ugly?
R.
Just average looking bloke I suppose.
Q.
Pardon?
R:
Just an average looking bloke you know.
Q.
I mean everything you're saying is very average, medium faced, that he might be a bit thin and then he's average looking, I mean.....
R:
Well he weren't, he weren't sort of ugly and he weren't sort of, sort of handsome bloke really, I .mean I don't really look at people and think cor he's a bit of alright you know.
Q:
No that's not what I meant you know.
Q.
No I don't mean that.
R:
He just, he just looked like a normal ......
Q.
He didn't have a nose all over his face or anything like that you know?
Q:
You would certainly notice an ugly bloke?
R:
Yeah, no he were... no I don't think he was an ugly bloke you know, he's a he's a respectable looking bloke yeah.
34.27:
Q.
Are we going to get any further?
Q.
What sort of age do you think? Put an age on him if you can.
R:
22, 23, 24, 25....
Q:
Early twenties is what you said last time.
R
Early twenties, yeah.
Q:
All three?
R.
Yeah, maybe one was a bit younger.
Q:
But you feel that one of them was certainly e... had some food?
R:
Yeah I think he did have some food because I... I think that when they come up to us he ha... He was holding something and eating something,
Q.
Yeah
Q:
Was it the one who spoke to you or not?
R:
Yeah the one that spoke.
Q.
The one that spoke.
R:
Yeah.
35.16:
Q.
Would urn...
R.
He might, he might not have been eating something you know, but he had, I'm sure he had something white in his hands as if that was a, a wrapper of some chips or kebab or something like that.
Q.
So yeah, but you, I mean you're not certain, you feel he had something white in his hands and you're just assuming it was food.
R.
That's right yeah.
Q.
I mean you didn't see it move to his mouth or anything?
R.
See it, it's hard to say in case I'm just imagining it, if you know what I mean. I, I, I know I seen something, but I don't what to say yeah he was, eating them in case it's just my imagination on that you know.
Q.
Umm well I hope you're being truthful with us.
R:
Yeah honestly that's the honest truth.
Q:
I mean if you're not. I mean if you're not we, I'll tell you now that we will find out because there's so many enquiries being done on this....
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Then we're getting to know all the time, various things, various things...
R.
Yeah.
Q.
I mean you've only just seen us two basically, but I can assure you there are a lot more people.
Q.
It's like your hands I mean we, you knew from what we were t... saying to you during this interview and that's why it came out.
Q:
Now why didn't you tell us first time that you hit a wall?
R.
I felt, I felt an idiot, do you know what I mean.
Q
Look that's the last thing that you've got to feel at me moment.
Q:
Well I'm given to understand that you've hit the wall before. That's why I've asked you.
R.
I've hit the wall before?
Q.
Yeah.
R:
Who said?
Q:
Well I've been told that, somebody said that you've got a bit of form for hitting walls when you lose your temper.
Q.
If you have you have.
R:
Er I don't think, I may, I may have hit a wall ages ago, but I, you know, I have hit a wall before then. This in't the first time I've.....
Q.
I don't say it to make us feel better. Have you hit a wall before?
R.
Yeah I have hit a wall before then.
Q.
On on a number of occasions?
R.
Well I don't know, see I know I, I hit a wall.....
Q.
When you've had a drink is that right? R.
What? what if I have a drink, let's, let's just say I don't want to hit anybody just to get rid of aggression.
37.13:
Q:
You'd rather hit the wall than hit a person.
Q:
That's fair enough. It's not an uncommon thing. I wish more people would hit walls rather than other peoole.
R:
Yeah alright.
Q:
That's no problem, that's no problem.
Q.
Why didn't you say that; before. Are you saying that to please us that you hit walls or is this the truth?
R.
That's the truth. I just, I don't know I just
Q.
Look the problem is that I don't understand why you, why you're doing this I mean your friend has been killed and you're worried about not telling us that you hit a wall now that doesn't seem right to me, I mean if it was my friend that was killed I'd say right I got these injuries, I'm a bloody fool, I hit a wall.
R:
Yeah alright then.
Q:
And I would have said hah yeah I believe that until we now, but we do know that you have hit walls before.
R.
Alright then, yeah I have.
Q.
Now what else haven't you told us?
R.
No....
Q.
Something that you might think is very silly, a bit embarrassing, I don't know. Something that might be embarrassing or something that's silly, something, I don't know if that's the case, that you might be worried about the future. No I don't really want... can I leave this out? Something that you, if you are holding back anything for god’s sake let us know.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Is there something that's playing at the back of your mind? To me there seems to be.
Q.
And if your mate don't p... don't p... try and protect Tony if he'd been
inv... Involved with something...
R.
No.
Q:
....earlier on then please for goodness sake you've got to tell us because that will clarify the picture and it may well have been that person who was involved in it earlier on.
R:
Tony is, is a bit rowdy.
Q:
Yeah well that's....
Q.
Is there... is there anything that happened earlier on that day or at any other time you can think that somebody might have a grudge against him, that they might have seen him down The Cellar Bar last night or indeed elsewhere?
R:
You see I, I only see Tony when he come home from work that day and then I see him the next when I went out with him.
Q.
Did you have any trouble in the other two pubs?
R:
No, but, but, when I got to the first pub Tony seemed a bit quiet for some reason, very quiet.
Q.
The first pub?
R:
Yeah the Wild Fowler
Q:
Why, why was that?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
Did you ask him why?
R:
Yeah I did ask him why and he said it was something to do with his tea was repeating, he had a bath with a full belly, straight after he'd had his tea and it was repeating. Yeah he was....
39.23:
Q:
So he just had a little bit of heartburn perhaps or something like that whatever you want to call it.
R.
Yeah and he, he just, he was really, really quiet and strange.
Q:
But he livened up throughout the evening though?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Get a few beers down his neck and he was...
R.
Yeah.
Q;
Improving as the night went on.
R:
That's right yeah.
Q:
Now when he was in the Cellar Bar he got, he got a little bit loud didn't he?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Now, who did he upset in there when he got a bit loud?
R.
Cor, honestly I.....
Q:
I mean don't worry about it if, well if you've told us something that ain't quite right before, now is the time to get it all sorted out.
R.
To tell you right?
Q.
Yeah, don't worry about that, we aren't going to shout at you because at the end of the day we want to know....
R.
That's right you want a picture built up.....
Q:
....(inaudible) So if it is the case that that's what's happened don't hold back.
R.
Alright then, Tony's done it before you know, he's got a bit, got a bit loud with people and I don't really take a lot of notice now because I know what he's like.
Q:
Yeah.
R.
Alright?
Q:
Yeah, but who was he getting loud at? Who did, who did he have this problem with in the Cellar Bar?
R.
I, I didn't, I didn't......
Q.
I mean if he's that loud...
R:
Yeah.
Q:
You would hear him above everybody else perhaps? would you not?
R.
No not over the music could you?
Q:
I don't know, I don't know how loud it was in there, I wasn't there. I'm too old for that sort of thing.
R:
Cause Tony was in there near the end though because I told you he was sitting there.
Q;
A-ha.
R:
And Rob and me and when I got up that telly fell down.
Q.
Yeah
R.
He was there then.
Q:
Yeah.
Q:
But there was... was there any problem over that telly falling down?
Q.
No.
R.
No
Q:
Everybody said that was a pure accident even if you'd have touched it, I mean it wasn't done on purpose so nobody's blaming anybody for that, that was forgotten.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
But after that Tony did have a row or had an arg... an argument with somebody.
R.
That didn't seem half an hour, three-quarters of an hour after that when the disco had finished so I thought I was with Tony nearly all the time you know.
Q:
But he was thrown out.
R:
No.. I... honestly I don't....
Q:
And then you went up the top, he was thrown out and he came back down in again and he was allowed back in.
R:
Yeah I don't know nothing about that.
Q:
And it was then that you may well have been at the time, cause you might well have left....
R:
I might of left then.
Q.
That’s right
R.
And he might, might have gone down and was talking to Carl SXXXXXXN, I understand there was a bit of a sort of a, what is the word for it, fuse between them.
Q:
I think there was an argument yeah.
R:
Yeah, so I tried to sort of, calm it down and then Carl then said, "Oh, you know, fuck you, I'll go and get Micky, he'll fucking sort you out you, you old bastard;" or something like that.
Q.
Well what was there a row about then, what were Tony and Carl arguing about?
R.
I don't know because when, when I waited at the stairs for Tony he weren't there so I just walked over and I heard them sort of arguing. So I just said, "Just leave it out;" I wanted to get home and get Tony out and then Carl went down to get Micky and said something about, "That (inaudible) bastard;" and then Micky said, 'What the one with The rugby shirt on or the one with the short hair, the little short bloke?" and he said "Yeah;" and he said, "I'll go out;" or something; "... and sort him out;" or something, and I said to Micky, "Look leave it out Micky you know he's had a few drinks and that just leave it." And as I was going up the stairs I think Carl was behind me and er then when I got to the top of the stairs I, I sort of had my hands like that on a rail...
Q:
What either side of the stairs?
R:
Yeah that's it. no, sort of on the left hand side like that, and I said,” Just come on Micky leave it alone “and all of a sudden he just grabbed me honestly and he squeezed me neck.
Q:
Did he say something to you? Did you say anything at all?
R:
Let me have that bastard or something.
Q:
Or would it not have been something like, "Don't tell me how to do my job."?
R:
Could have been something like that, yeah.
Q.
Well is that, was that said or don't you remember?
R.
Well yeah, probably words to some effect and then I, I turned round and said to him about why, why do you want to sort of hit Tony, he just doing his job or something like that. You, you are right there. You are right.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Yeah so he did say that then?
R.
Yeah he did say something about like that, but then he said that, but why did he keep headbutting me? Why did he grab me afterwards and...
Q.
Well that I can't, I can't answer why he kept doing that, I don't see any reason why he would want to do that, but that is, there's nothing else you can think of?
R:
Not….
Q.
Are you certain?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
If there is at any time you've got to let us know as soon as possible.
R.
What about, can't I go round Town one day with one of you?
Q:
Well we'll sort that out afterwards look, it's coming to the end of the tape....
Q.
Yeah.
Q:
I haven't got anything further to say.
Q:
I've got nothing else to say.
SOLICITOR:
No I've got nothing.
Q.
No, is, is there anything that... else that you want to say?
R:
I'll just you know try and remember as much as I can.
Q:
Okay. I'll serve you with this.....
R:
.... and I'll, and I'll you know promise that'll I .......(inaudible over talking).
Q.
Do you want; do you want to make a written statement?
SOLICITOR:
No.
R.
No thank you.
Q.
I'll serve you with the notice at the end. The time is now 7.03 and I'll terminate the interview.
44.43.