Hayley Garrigan was a good friend of mine and gets things pretty much right. She made her statement on the Sunday the day after the murder. Perhaps if she hadn’t been a friend the Police may have took note at what she had to say although I very much doubt it. They wasn’t listening to anything that may have cast doubt over it not been me. She says pretty much the same as the two friends of Gorman. .” I saw Mick TEAL laugh and say something to the man who remained behind, though I don’t know what was said. I would describe this person as being male, white, with a blonde crew cut, and a receding hair line. He was wearing blue jeans and a multicolored rugby shirt. After Mick had spoken to the man, the man smiled at him and got up and walked away.” She goes on to say, “Further to the above when Mick first spoke to the boy on the bench, although I didn’t hear what had been said, I got the impression that it was jokey and friendly and not aggressive.” She describes me as “larking about”.
What’s more her timings are pretty spot on too. After throwing Gorman out she says I returned to her “within a minute” and picked up my drink. She then says, “but no sooner had he done this when someone called him back. I saw Mick leave the club and walk out of the door. After about 5 minutes or so I walked over to the door, and checked that nothing was happening outside. As I looked outside I saw Mick and Rod MOORE one of the other bouncers, just coming down the stairs. I saw that Mick had a cut on his forehead and had a lot of blood on his face, and on the front of his shirt. I didn't notice whether Rod had any injuries or not but I did see that he had some blood on his shirt. Seeing this took me back a bit, and so I stepped back into the club. Mick and Rod went over to the bar, where Mick was given something to wipe his face with”.
So the 5 minutes I was outside the second time was when I was having the fight with Sewell. She describes me leaving with her speaking to Robert White near Lloyds Bank etc etc.
Why couldn’t the Police see that everything she says matches Robert White and others? It was impossible for me to have had the fight with Sewell then go after Gorman on the Market Place, with Sewell there chase Gorman to the Lattice Kill him and then get back to the club without anybody seeing me all in five minutes. Another line of enquiry the Plod missed was the bit about Hayley seeing Andy Griggs. She says this, “, whilst I walked in the direction of High Street. In one of the shop doorways, I think the Linen Shop, on the right hand side, I saw Andy GRIGGS sitting down in the doorway. Andy is the boyfriend of Donna PURPLE and he lives at Terrington, though I don’t know his address. He was complaining of a sore arm which he said he had hurt in a scuffle outside the Cellar Bar. He stated that someone had run down the stairs hitting everyone in his path and that this person had pushed a woman into him, which is how he had hurt his arm.” Andy Griggs was a friend of Tony Crown who witnesses say knocked Gorman down the stairs outside the club and just prior to me going out there.
Tony Gorman’s Family were tragically let down by the King’s Lynn Police that night. There were so many leads that they should have followed but chose not to. Shouldn’t someone be asking WHY?
Saturday 9 February 2008
Hayley Garrigan Statement
NAME: HAYLEY MICHELLE GARRIGAN
AGE / DATE OF Birth: 25 170911965
OCCUPATION: PART TIME MEDICAL LABORATORY ASSISTANT
Who states: This statement consisting of 6 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED: 020391
H M GARRIGAN (SIGNED)
I am Hayley Michelle GARRIGAN and live at the address stated overleaf where I have lived for the last five years. I am married to Anthony GARRIGAN and we have been married for nearly four years, I also have a little boy. Jack, 3 years, and at the moment I am 5 months pregnant. On the evening of Friday 1st March, 1991, I had arranged to go out with some of my girlfriends. We had planned to meet in the Tudor Rose, Kings Lynn, at 8.30opm and from there to go to a couple of pubs and then to the Cellar Bar. My husband dropped me off outside the Tudor Rose at 8.30pm. He was driving our blue Ford Sierra saloon. I do not know the registration number of the car. When I went inside the Tudor Rose I met three of my friends Donna PURPLE, Mandy AMBSROSE and Anne HARDY. I used to go out with this group about once a fortnight, but I have gone less regularly since I became pregnant. The last time I went out with then all was before, Christmas. I got to know the girls when I used to work at Berol, where Donna and Anne worked and I have known them for 7 years. Mandy started working there later, after I had left but I get to know her through the other two, and I have known her for about 5 years. We had about three drinks in the Tudor Rose and left there at about9.45pm. We then walked to the Lattice House, and had another drink in there. We only stayed in the Lattice House for a short while and at about 10.30pm we then went to the Maydens Head. We all had another couple of drinks in the Maydens Head, and stayed there until sometime between 10.30pm and 11.00pm at which time we walked to the Cellar Bar. All four of us were still together as a group. We went down the outside staircase and into the club. Mick TEAL was on the door, as he works at the Cellar Bar as a bouncer. Also standing with Mick was a man who I knew as one of the Hammond brothers. I don't know whether it was Jay HAMMOND or Wayne HAMMDND, but he has got long fair or blonde hair and a moustache. .As I know Mick he let us all in without paying, When we got inside we all went to the bar where we all got a drink. The club seemed fairly crowded at this time and so we stood together in a group, though on occasions a couple of us would leave the other two whilst we went to speak to somebody we knew. We would always end up back together as a foursome standing together. I can remember no incidents of note within the club until about 12.45am when one of the televisions fell from its bracket on the wall and fell to the ground. At the time I was standing near to the disc jockeys rostrum, which is quite near to where the television was. I think Mick TEAL was also standing somewhere nearby. The next incident I remember was just before 1.00am as the place was about to close. Donna had already left the club, sometime before 12.30am and the other two had also left just before 1.00am. I needed to sit down and so I went to sit on a bench which is situated just behind the disc jockeys rostrum. As I walked to the bench there was a group of people walking away from it. The group consisted of probably a couple of lads and a girl, though I cannot be sure. I did not know any of the group. One person stayed on the bench in a slouched position. He said something like "Fucking Bitch" to the group as they were leaving. I saw Mick TEAL laugh and say something to the man who remained behind, though I don’t know what was said. I would describe this person as being male, white, with a blonde crew cut, and a receding hair line. He was wearing blue jeans and a multicolored rugby shirt. After Mick had spoken to the man, the man smiled at him and got up and walked away. I sat down and therefore had my back to the entrance, whilst Mick was standing in front of me talking to me. He was larking about with me and when I got £5.00 out for my taxi fare he picked it up and put it in his pocket. I have known Mick TEAL for about five to six years as he is a good friend of my husband. All of a sudden Mick shot off, and went to the Middle of the club. I turned round and saw the person I referred to earlier as HAMMOND standing with the person who had been sitting on the bench earlier with the multi coloured rugby shirt on. I did not see what had happened but I saw Mick TEAL take hold of this person by either his arms or his shoulders, and he took him towards the exit. I did not see exactly where he took him because there were other people there. Within a minute or so he returned to me (Mick that is), and picked up his drink, but no sooner had he done this when someone called him back. I saw Mick leave the club and walk out of the door. After about 5 minutes or so I walked over to the door, and checked that nothing was happening outside. As I looked outside I saw Mick and Rod MOORE one of the other bouncers, just coming down the stairs. I saw that Mick had a cut on his forehead and had a lot of blood on his face, and on the front of his shirt. I didn't notice whether Rod had any injuries or not but I did see that he had some blood on his shirt. Seeing this took me back a bit, and so I stepped back into the club. Mick and Rod went over to the bar, where Mick was given something to wipe his face with. I then went over to ask him for my £5 pounds which I think he had probably forgotten about. Mick told me that he would walk me over and get a taxi. I left the club with Mick followed by Rod MOORE and I think we were also joined by another bouncer Rory SANDISH. Just as we started to walk over the Tuesday Market Place he gave my money back. We walked diagonally from Page Stair Lane to the opposite corner near the entrance to High Street. I told Mick that as there had been some fighting I did not want to walk with him in case there was any more fighting and so he walked ahead of me, leaving me to walk to the taxi office on my own. When he reached the Lloyds Bank he stopped briefly to talk to a boy who was standing there and then he walked down the cobbled street which runs behind Marks and Spencer’s. He was followed a short way behind by Rod MOORE, whilst I walked in the direction of High Street. In one of the shop doorways, I think the Linen Shop, on the right hand side, I saw Andy GRIGGS sitting down in the doorway. Andy is the boyfriend of Donna PURPLE and he lives at Terrington, though I don’t know his address. He was complaining of a sore arm which he said he had hurt in a scuffle outside the Cellar Bar. He stated that someone had run down the stairs hitting everyone in his path and that this person had pushed a woman into him, which is how he had hurt his arm. He got up and walked with me to the “Chick King” in Norfolk Street, where I saw some of my cousins. I then walked to Crown Taxi’s and got a taxi home. Other than the people I have already mentioned the following people were also in the club, Gary HARRIS and his girlfriend (address unknown). Ricky (surname unknown). Chips (full name unknown). David EASY, Mandy OAKES (Chequer St). Julie LONG (Pot Row). Gail (surname unknown). There was also the regular staff there as well. Further to the above when Mick first spoke to the boy on the bench, although I didn’t hear what had been said, I got the impression that it was jokey and friendly and not aggressive. I do not know whether I actually told Mick the reason I did not want to walk with him but I remember telling him I wanted to walk on my own. Throughout the evening I had about 4 halves of lager tops and the rest of the time drank soft drinks. I was there for not at all drunk and my relocation of the events is very clear.
Statement completed at 2030 hours 2.3.91.
H M GARRIGAN; SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN PLACE:
TIME: DATE: 020391
AGE / DATE OF Birth: 25 170911965
OCCUPATION: PART TIME MEDICAL LABORATORY ASSISTANT
Who states: This statement consisting of 6 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED: 020391
H M GARRIGAN (SIGNED)
I am Hayley Michelle GARRIGAN and live at the address stated overleaf where I have lived for the last five years. I am married to Anthony GARRIGAN and we have been married for nearly four years, I also have a little boy. Jack, 3 years, and at the moment I am 5 months pregnant. On the evening of Friday 1st March, 1991, I had arranged to go out with some of my girlfriends. We had planned to meet in the Tudor Rose, Kings Lynn, at 8.30opm and from there to go to a couple of pubs and then to the Cellar Bar. My husband dropped me off outside the Tudor Rose at 8.30pm. He was driving our blue Ford Sierra saloon. I do not know the registration number of the car. When I went inside the Tudor Rose I met three of my friends Donna PURPLE, Mandy AMBSROSE and Anne HARDY. I used to go out with this group about once a fortnight, but I have gone less regularly since I became pregnant. The last time I went out with then all was before, Christmas. I got to know the girls when I used to work at Berol, where Donna and Anne worked and I have known them for 7 years. Mandy started working there later, after I had left but I get to know her through the other two, and I have known her for about 5 years. We had about three drinks in the Tudor Rose and left there at about9.45pm. We then walked to the Lattice House, and had another drink in there. We only stayed in the Lattice House for a short while and at about 10.30pm we then went to the Maydens Head. We all had another couple of drinks in the Maydens Head, and stayed there until sometime between 10.30pm and 11.00pm at which time we walked to the Cellar Bar. All four of us were still together as a group. We went down the outside staircase and into the club. Mick TEAL was on the door, as he works at the Cellar Bar as a bouncer. Also standing with Mick was a man who I knew as one of the Hammond brothers. I don't know whether it was Jay HAMMOND or Wayne HAMMDND, but he has got long fair or blonde hair and a moustache. .As I know Mick he let us all in without paying, When we got inside we all went to the bar where we all got a drink. The club seemed fairly crowded at this time and so we stood together in a group, though on occasions a couple of us would leave the other two whilst we went to speak to somebody we knew. We would always end up back together as a foursome standing together. I can remember no incidents of note within the club until about 12.45am when one of the televisions fell from its bracket on the wall and fell to the ground. At the time I was standing near to the disc jockeys rostrum, which is quite near to where the television was. I think Mick TEAL was also standing somewhere nearby. The next incident I remember was just before 1.00am as the place was about to close. Donna had already left the club, sometime before 12.30am and the other two had also left just before 1.00am. I needed to sit down and so I went to sit on a bench which is situated just behind the disc jockeys rostrum. As I walked to the bench there was a group of people walking away from it. The group consisted of probably a couple of lads and a girl, though I cannot be sure. I did not know any of the group. One person stayed on the bench in a slouched position. He said something like "Fucking Bitch" to the group as they were leaving. I saw Mick TEAL laugh and say something to the man who remained behind, though I don’t know what was said. I would describe this person as being male, white, with a blonde crew cut, and a receding hair line. He was wearing blue jeans and a multicolored rugby shirt. After Mick had spoken to the man, the man smiled at him and got up and walked away. I sat down and therefore had my back to the entrance, whilst Mick was standing in front of me talking to me. He was larking about with me and when I got £5.00 out for my taxi fare he picked it up and put it in his pocket. I have known Mick TEAL for about five to six years as he is a good friend of my husband. All of a sudden Mick shot off, and went to the Middle of the club. I turned round and saw the person I referred to earlier as HAMMOND standing with the person who had been sitting on the bench earlier with the multi coloured rugby shirt on. I did not see what had happened but I saw Mick TEAL take hold of this person by either his arms or his shoulders, and he took him towards the exit. I did not see exactly where he took him because there were other people there. Within a minute or so he returned to me (Mick that is), and picked up his drink, but no sooner had he done this when someone called him back. I saw Mick leave the club and walk out of the door. After about 5 minutes or so I walked over to the door, and checked that nothing was happening outside. As I looked outside I saw Mick and Rod MOORE one of the other bouncers, just coming down the stairs. I saw that Mick had a cut on his forehead and had a lot of blood on his face, and on the front of his shirt. I didn't notice whether Rod had any injuries or not but I did see that he had some blood on his shirt. Seeing this took me back a bit, and so I stepped back into the club. Mick and Rod went over to the bar, where Mick was given something to wipe his face with. I then went over to ask him for my £5 pounds which I think he had probably forgotten about. Mick told me that he would walk me over and get a taxi. I left the club with Mick followed by Rod MOORE and I think we were also joined by another bouncer Rory SANDISH. Just as we started to walk over the Tuesday Market Place he gave my money back. We walked diagonally from Page Stair Lane to the opposite corner near the entrance to High Street. I told Mick that as there had been some fighting I did not want to walk with him in case there was any more fighting and so he walked ahead of me, leaving me to walk to the taxi office on my own. When he reached the Lloyds Bank he stopped briefly to talk to a boy who was standing there and then he walked down the cobbled street which runs behind Marks and Spencer’s. He was followed a short way behind by Rod MOORE, whilst I walked in the direction of High Street. In one of the shop doorways, I think the Linen Shop, on the right hand side, I saw Andy GRIGGS sitting down in the doorway. Andy is the boyfriend of Donna PURPLE and he lives at Terrington, though I don’t know his address. He was complaining of a sore arm which he said he had hurt in a scuffle outside the Cellar Bar. He stated that someone had run down the stairs hitting everyone in his path and that this person had pushed a woman into him, which is how he had hurt his arm. He got up and walked with me to the “Chick King” in Norfolk Street, where I saw some of my cousins. I then walked to Crown Taxi’s and got a taxi home. Other than the people I have already mentioned the following people were also in the club, Gary HARRIS and his girlfriend (address unknown). Ricky (surname unknown). Chips (full name unknown). David EASY, Mandy OAKES (Chequer St). Julie LONG (Pot Row). Gail (surname unknown). There was also the regular staff there as well. Further to the above when Mick first spoke to the boy on the bench, although I didn’t hear what had been said, I got the impression that it was jokey and friendly and not aggressive. I do not know whether I actually told Mick the reason I did not want to walk with him but I remember telling him I wanted to walk on my own. Throughout the evening I had about 4 halves of lager tops and the rest of the time drank soft drinks. I was there for not at all drunk and my relocation of the events is very clear.
Statement completed at 2030 hours 2.3.91.
H M GARRIGAN; SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN PLACE:
TIME: DATE: 020391
Thursday 7 February 2008
RE: Robert White's Statement
Robert Whites statement does a couple of very important things. Let me make it clear though 1st that he’s got my surname wrong but it is safe to say when he talks about Mickey Tanner he is meaning me. Firstly what he does is show the relationship I had with Sewell and Gorman and my attitude to things like the TV getting damaged. The second thing he says which was important was he remembers me running up to him and asking about Sewell. He says this:
“I walked to the Maydens Head and then I walked towards the High Street, towards McDonalds. As we were walking the bouncer Mickey TANNER ran up to me and I said to him "What’s the matter” I saw that his shirt was covered in blood, he said to me "Where's your mate." By this time I had already seen Gary leave the Market Place down past the Tudor Rose. I did not see Tony again so I don't know whether he followed Gary. When Mickey TANNER asked me where they had gone I was just coming up to the Lloyds Bank and I didn't tell him where Gary had gone, but just pointed vaguely behind me. He called me "a lying cunt" and just ran past me, and then down the cobbled lane, which runs down past the side of the Lloyds Bank. Mickey TANNER was on his own but a few moments later the bouncer who I know as MOORE came running up and I just pointed where Mickey TANNER had run. MOORE ran after him,”
It was important because it establishes the way I left the club and it also says I was alone. I want to mention that during my interviews when the Police said I ran past the body with Rod Moore. I wasn’t aware that Rod had been following me. The 1st time I saw Rod Moore after I started running was in a Police car that pulled up along side me. So with this and other satements I will establish as fact that I did infact take the Red route as described in the previous maps. So when Colman and others say I ran past the body it was after meeting Robert White on the Market Place.
“I walked to the Maydens Head and then I walked towards the High Street, towards McDonalds. As we were walking the bouncer Mickey TANNER ran up to me and I said to him "What’s the matter” I saw that his shirt was covered in blood, he said to me "Where's your mate." By this time I had already seen Gary leave the Market Place down past the Tudor Rose. I did not see Tony again so I don't know whether he followed Gary. When Mickey TANNER asked me where they had gone I was just coming up to the Lloyds Bank and I didn't tell him where Gary had gone, but just pointed vaguely behind me. He called me "a lying cunt" and just ran past me, and then down the cobbled lane, which runs down past the side of the Lloyds Bank. Mickey TANNER was on his own but a few moments later the bouncer who I know as MOORE came running up and I just pointed where Mickey TANNER had run. MOORE ran after him,”
It was important because it establishes the way I left the club and it also says I was alone. I want to mention that during my interviews when the Police said I ran past the body with Rod Moore. I wasn’t aware that Rod had been following me. The 1st time I saw Rod Moore after I started running was in a Police car that pulled up along side me. So with this and other satements I will establish as fact that I did infact take the Red route as described in the previous maps. So when Colman and others say I ran past the body it was after meeting Robert White on the Market Place.
Robert White
NORFOLK POLICE HEADQUARTERS STATION
NAME: ROBERT JOHN WHITE
ADDRESS:
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 22 16101968
OCCUPATION: ROOFER
Who states: - This statement consisting of 10 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I-make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED: 020391 R J WHITE (SIGNED)
I am Robert John WHITE, and I live at the address stated overleaf where I have lived for approximately ten weeks. Before this I was lodging at 127 Columbia Way, Kings Lynn, where Greta was the landlady. I do not know Greta’s surname. I lived at that address for three to four months. Since I moved to Norfolk in 1982 I first of all lived with my parents until 1985, but since then I have lived at a number of addresses both in Kings Lynn and in London, but I did not stay at the addresses for longer than 6 months. Since I was seventeen years old I have known a man called Gary HILL, who lives at 24 George Street, Kings Lynn and we are close friends. In the summer of 1990 I got to know a man called Tony GOREMAN who worked with Gary HILL, and I met him socially through Gary. In November 1990 I started working with Tony GOREMAN and so we became close friends. Gary HILL used to work for G.W. KIER of 1 Willow Road, Heacham, which is where Tony also worked; when Gary HILL left the firm in November 1990 I took over his position, working with Tony. I also know a man called Gary SEWELL and I have known him since May, 1990. I returned from London in May, 1990, to Kings Lynn, and I started working with Gary SEWELL at Lyntool Engineering Company, Paxman Road, Hardwick Industrial Estate, Kings Lynn. Gary SEWELL lives at 29 Browning Place, Kings Lynn. As part of my social life I often go out with Tony GOREMAN and Gary SEWELL, on most Friday and Saturday nights. We always meet in the Wild Fowler Public House, Gayton Road, Kings Lynn, and after a couple of drinks we would go to the New Inn, Wootton Road, Kings Lynn, and after that we would go to Kings Lynn town centre. We would often end up in the Cellar Bar, Page Stair Lane, Kings Lynn. Over the last two months we have been to the Cellar Bar two or three times a month. We would normally arrive there about 11.00pm to 11.30pm. Through my visits there I know one of the bouncers as Mickey TANNER. He is about 6'0" tall, or slightly taller, with a pale complexion and short blonde hair. He is well built with a large chest. As I would go into the Cellar Bar he would nod to me and I would nod back to him, as we recognised each other by face, though I have never spoken to him. I understand that he knows Gary HILL quite well. Mickey TANNER lives in a caravan at the back of George Street, Kings Lynn, where he is doing up a house. This is opposite where Gary HILL lives. When I go out with Gary SEWELL and Tony GOREMAN and we have a few beers, they often get a bit loud, full of high spirits, not violent or aggressive. They often take the mickey out of me and out of each other for example. When we went to the Cellar Bar together, Gary SEWELL and Tony GOREMAN would often have words with Mickey TANNER if he was on the door. It would be a bit of friendly mickey taking out of each other, but there was nothing serious or aggressive in it. On the evening of Friday 1st March, 1991, I went to the Wild Fowler Public House at about 7.40pm. I was due to meet both Gary SEWELL and Tony GOREMAN in there at 8.00pm, but they both arrived just before. When I first got there I ordered a pint of Lowenbrow lager, for myself and when the other two arrived I got them both a pint of lager shandy. We stayed in the Wild Fowler until about 10.00pm, during which time we had about 4 pints of lager each. I rang for a taxi from Kens Taxi firm at about 9.50pm, and I used Tony’s name. The taxi arrived about 10 minutes later and took us to the Wootton New Inn, Wootton Road, Kings Lynn. When we got there we went into the Sport Bar, which is the one furthest from the road at the back of the pub. We were served by a lady who I know as Mrs. SPAIN and we only had one pint each whilst we were there, a pint of Holsten. We left the pub at about 10.30pm and were given a lift into town by two men with Geordie accents who drove a blue Austin Maestro, possibly D registration. I did not know these men, and I don't remember having even seen them in the New Inn. They first of all drove us to the rear of Gary SEWELL's house in Browning Place, as Gary had told the men he had to collect his inhaler. The men waited for us as he only took about three minutes and then they drove us to the Tuesday Market Place, Kings Lynn, where they dropped us off outside the Maydens Head, Public House. Once they had dropped us off I didn't see the two Geordie lads again that evening. All three of us then went into the Maydens Head where we all had another pint of lager, Holsten this time. One of the girls who works behind the bar, Kelly GALLAGHER is the sister of one of the people I live with and she also lives there. Her boyfriend John whose surname I don't know was standing at the bar. He lives somewhere in North Lynn but I don't know the address. We left the pub just as the bell was being rung for time, signifying that the pub was about to close. I think this was about 11.10pm. We all walked from the pub directly across the Tuesday Market Place, to the Cellar Bar, Page Stair Lane, Kings Lynn. When we reached the Cellar Bar we went down the steps and through the double doors into the pub. As we went through the doors I saw a man inside who I recognised, but whose name I don't know. He told us that we had to pay £1.00 to get in. We all paid our money and then walked through to the main bar. We all went straight to the bar and ordered a pint of lager each, but I don't know what sort of lager it was. Having got our drinks we all had a walk around to see who else was in there to nave a chat to. We were all together at first, but gradually we split up. The club was fairly packed at this time. The first person who I met and talked to was a man who I know as Chips. I don't know his full name, but he lives behind the flats where Gary SEWELL lives, in Browning Place. I then saw two other friends who I know Steven JACKSON (nickname Stid) and Paul HUNT. Stid lives at Terrington St. clement, but I don't know where Paul HUNT lives. I spoke to another person I knew in there called Terry MAHOFFER, but I don't know where he lives. I know his father lives at Tilney All Saints, just down from the school. Throughout the evening I was walking around the club, but I often met up with Gary SEWELL and Tony GOREMAN near the bench which is at the far end of the bar, in the-back left hand corner of the premises near the door to the toilets. This is right behind the Disc Jockeys rostrum. About 12.30am to 12.45am there was an incident involving a television set which is normally on a bracket attached to the wall to the right of the bench, above a heater. I do not know how the television set came to cone off the wall but I remember it being in place at one moment and then after I had had a walk around with Paul HUNT I returned to the bench and I saw the glass from the television screen on the floor, but I don't know where the television had gone. The bouncer who I know as Mickey TANNER was standing there when I returned. I remember him saying something like "I don’t care who did it" as if he wasn't worried about the damage I sat down and started talking to a girl called Sam. I don't know where she lives, or her surname, but she works on the Gaywood Pizza shop, in Wootton Road. Also present was a girl called Sue, whose surname I don't know but who I think lives in South Wootton and another girl I don't know. I can't remember whether Gary SEWELL and Tony GORMAN there at this time. I then remember Gary and Tony being there, and the fact that Gary was being a bit loud. One of the bouncers, who had short dark hair, came and had a word with Gary and told him to quieten down. All three of us decided it was time to leave. I got up and walked out with the girl called Sue and I think that Gary SEWELL followed on behind us. I don't know what happened to Tony GOREMAN at this time. I walked outside and went to the top of the stairs outside where I waited for the other two. Gary SEWELL kept coming up and then going back into the club looking for Tony. I was standing at the top of the stairs in doorway of the snooker club. I was aware that there were couples coming out of the club, walking up the stairs, when I saw that there was a bit of a scuffle taking place at the bottom of the stairs. I do not know who was involved in the scuffle but I assumed it, was bouncers because I could see white shirts. I then remember seeing Gary SEWELL being held against the wall of the top of the stairs by the bouncer Mickey TANNER. The bouncer had Gary held around the throat by I think one hand, but I do not know which hand. They were arguing and had their faces very close to each other. I then saw Mickey TANNER head butt Gary SEWELL in the face. I started to walk towards them, when I saw another of the bouncers running up the stairs. I would describe him as being in his mid thirties, with short cropped hair, who I think is called MOORE. He split Mickey TANNER up from Gary SEWELL. As Gary turned away I saw that he had a cut above his eye, and I saw that Mickey had a cut on his forehead, and that his shirt was covered in blood. Gary then walked past me and towards the Tuesday Market Place. I then become aware that there was another scuffle at the top of the stairs when a girl, either fell or was pushed down the stairs. I then saw the girl hobble back up the stairs, and stand again the wall at the top of the stairs. I then saw a man who I know as Carl SxxxxxxN standing near the top of the stairs, who said something like "It was the bald one down there," and at the same time was pointing down the stairs. I then remember seeing Tony GOREMAN come walking up the stairs, and Tony kept saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry." Another woman nearby who I don't know said to Tony something like "You pushed her down the stairs," or "You made her fall." Again Tony said "I'm sorry." He repeated this about three times. I then saw that Sue was walking away, and so I said to Tony "See you," and then walked away to catch up with Sue. I walked straight across the Market Place with Sue and Sam and another girl who I didn't know. I walked to the Maydens Head and then I walked towards the High Street, towards McDonalds. As we were walking the bouncer Mickey TANNER ran up to me and I said to him "What’s the matter” I saw that his shirt was covered in blood, he said to me "Where's your mate." By this time I had already seen Gary leave the Market Place down past the Tudor Rose. I did not see Tony again so I don't know whether he followed Gary. When Mickey TANNER asked me where they had gone I was just coming up to the Lloyds Bank and I didn't tell him where Gary had gone, but just pointed vaguely behind me. He called me "a lying cunt" and just ran past me, and then down the cobbled lane, which runs down past the side of the Lloyds Bank. Mickey TANNER was on his own but a few moments later the bouncer who I know as MOORE came running up and I just pointed where Mickey TANNER had run. MOORE ran after him, I then stopped outside the phone box whilst the girls used the telephone. Sam then waited outside the phone box for her boyfriend whilst I carried on walking into the High Street with Sue and the other girl. We then turned left into Norfolk Street and walked towards the road. As we were walking along the part of Norfolk Street which is an actual road a Cavalier Car (I don't know the colour) pulled up. I saw that Sam was in the passenger seat and I therefore assumed that the driver was her boyfriend Mark COTTON although I had never seen him before. Sue and the other girl then went over to the car and after having a brief word they returned. I do not know whether they spoke to either the passenger or the driver or both. At this time we were down near Chicago’s on the opposite side of the road near an alleyway. The car had originally come from the direction of the Tuesday Market Place, and so was facing Railway Road. As the two girls were walking away from the car, and back towards me, the car pulled away, and then pulled across the road towards the side of the road where I was standing. The car stopped and the driver sat and stared at me. He then got out of the car and walked up to me. He said something to me, though I can't remember what he said, or what it was about, and then he hit me with a clenched fist in the right hand side of my mouth. I do not know which hand he hit me with, but as a result of this assault on me I now have a fat lip, and a cut on the inside of my lip. He then got back into the car and drove off, and I saw that Sue and the other girl were standing waiting for me in the nearby alleyway. I had intended to share a cab home with Sue, but the other girl said that Sue could stay with her in her flat in Norfolk Street, and so I just walked home on my own. As I walked away, just after being hit I realised that Terry MAHOFFER was also walking down Norfolk Street, behind me. He was with a group of two to three other people who I didn't know. He called me by my name and then laughed as he said something like "This is a good night, you've just been hit and your mates been beaten up and is out cold near the Lattice House." I think he said something about a rugby shirt but I can't really remember. It didn't really sink in and so I just carried on walking home. I would describe the clothes Gary SEWELL "Was wearing as follows:- Brown kicker boots, blue jeans and a red and grey rugby shirt, whilst Tony GOREMAN was wearing blue jeans, brown suede shoes and an England Rugby shirt with a rose on the left side of the chest. It is red and white or red, white and blue. Over the course of the evening I had had seven pints of lager and one vodka, whilst the other two had had eight pints each. Although I was merry I wouldn't describe myself as having been drunk and my recollection of the events is reasonably clear.
Statement completed at 1515 hrs 2.3.91.
R J WHITE SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN
PLACE:
TIME: DATE: 020391
WITNESS TO SIGNATURE: R J WHITE
OFFICERS SIGNATURE: DC 448
NAME: ROBERT JOHN WHITE
ADDRESS:
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 22 16101968
OCCUPATION: ROOFER
Who states: - This statement consisting of 10 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I-make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED: 020391 R J WHITE (SIGNED)
I am Robert John WHITE, and I live at the address stated overleaf where I have lived for approximately ten weeks. Before this I was lodging at 127 Columbia Way, Kings Lynn, where Greta was the landlady. I do not know Greta’s surname. I lived at that address for three to four months. Since I moved to Norfolk in 1982 I first of all lived with my parents until 1985, but since then I have lived at a number of addresses both in Kings Lynn and in London, but I did not stay at the addresses for longer than 6 months. Since I was seventeen years old I have known a man called Gary HILL, who lives at 24 George Street, Kings Lynn and we are close friends. In the summer of 1990 I got to know a man called Tony GOREMAN who worked with Gary HILL, and I met him socially through Gary. In November 1990 I started working with Tony GOREMAN and so we became close friends. Gary HILL used to work for G.W. KIER of 1 Willow Road, Heacham, which is where Tony also worked; when Gary HILL left the firm in November 1990 I took over his position, working with Tony. I also know a man called Gary SEWELL and I have known him since May, 1990. I returned from London in May, 1990, to Kings Lynn, and I started working with Gary SEWELL at Lyntool Engineering Company, Paxman Road, Hardwick Industrial Estate, Kings Lynn. Gary SEWELL lives at 29 Browning Place, Kings Lynn. As part of my social life I often go out with Tony GOREMAN and Gary SEWELL, on most Friday and Saturday nights. We always meet in the Wild Fowler Public House, Gayton Road, Kings Lynn, and after a couple of drinks we would go to the New Inn, Wootton Road, Kings Lynn, and after that we would go to Kings Lynn town centre. We would often end up in the Cellar Bar, Page Stair Lane, Kings Lynn. Over the last two months we have been to the Cellar Bar two or three times a month. We would normally arrive there about 11.00pm to 11.30pm. Through my visits there I know one of the bouncers as Mickey TANNER. He is about 6'0" tall, or slightly taller, with a pale complexion and short blonde hair. He is well built with a large chest. As I would go into the Cellar Bar he would nod to me and I would nod back to him, as we recognised each other by face, though I have never spoken to him. I understand that he knows Gary HILL quite well. Mickey TANNER lives in a caravan at the back of George Street, Kings Lynn, where he is doing up a house. This is opposite where Gary HILL lives. When I go out with Gary SEWELL and Tony GOREMAN and we have a few beers, they often get a bit loud, full of high spirits, not violent or aggressive. They often take the mickey out of me and out of each other for example. When we went to the Cellar Bar together, Gary SEWELL and Tony GOREMAN would often have words with Mickey TANNER if he was on the door. It would be a bit of friendly mickey taking out of each other, but there was nothing serious or aggressive in it. On the evening of Friday 1st March, 1991, I went to the Wild Fowler Public House at about 7.40pm. I was due to meet both Gary SEWELL and Tony GOREMAN in there at 8.00pm, but they both arrived just before. When I first got there I ordered a pint of Lowenbrow lager, for myself and when the other two arrived I got them both a pint of lager shandy. We stayed in the Wild Fowler until about 10.00pm, during which time we had about 4 pints of lager each. I rang for a taxi from Kens Taxi firm at about 9.50pm, and I used Tony’s name. The taxi arrived about 10 minutes later and took us to the Wootton New Inn, Wootton Road, Kings Lynn. When we got there we went into the Sport Bar, which is the one furthest from the road at the back of the pub. We were served by a lady who I know as Mrs. SPAIN and we only had one pint each whilst we were there, a pint of Holsten. We left the pub at about 10.30pm and were given a lift into town by two men with Geordie accents who drove a blue Austin Maestro, possibly D registration. I did not know these men, and I don't remember having even seen them in the New Inn. They first of all drove us to the rear of Gary SEWELL's house in Browning Place, as Gary had told the men he had to collect his inhaler. The men waited for us as he only took about three minutes and then they drove us to the Tuesday Market Place, Kings Lynn, where they dropped us off outside the Maydens Head, Public House. Once they had dropped us off I didn't see the two Geordie lads again that evening. All three of us then went into the Maydens Head where we all had another pint of lager, Holsten this time. One of the girls who works behind the bar, Kelly GALLAGHER is the sister of one of the people I live with and she also lives there. Her boyfriend John whose surname I don't know was standing at the bar. He lives somewhere in North Lynn but I don't know the address. We left the pub just as the bell was being rung for time, signifying that the pub was about to close. I think this was about 11.10pm. We all walked from the pub directly across the Tuesday Market Place, to the Cellar Bar, Page Stair Lane, Kings Lynn. When we reached the Cellar Bar we went down the steps and through the double doors into the pub. As we went through the doors I saw a man inside who I recognised, but whose name I don't know. He told us that we had to pay £1.00 to get in. We all paid our money and then walked through to the main bar. We all went straight to the bar and ordered a pint of lager each, but I don't know what sort of lager it was. Having got our drinks we all had a walk around to see who else was in there to nave a chat to. We were all together at first, but gradually we split up. The club was fairly packed at this time. The first person who I met and talked to was a man who I know as Chips. I don't know his full name, but he lives behind the flats where Gary SEWELL lives, in Browning Place. I then saw two other friends who I know Steven JACKSON (nickname Stid) and Paul HUNT. Stid lives at Terrington St. clement, but I don't know where Paul HUNT lives. I spoke to another person I knew in there called Terry MAHOFFER, but I don't know where he lives. I know his father lives at Tilney All Saints, just down from the school. Throughout the evening I was walking around the club, but I often met up with Gary SEWELL and Tony GOREMAN near the bench which is at the far end of the bar, in the-back left hand corner of the premises near the door to the toilets. This is right behind the Disc Jockeys rostrum. About 12.30am to 12.45am there was an incident involving a television set which is normally on a bracket attached to the wall to the right of the bench, above a heater. I do not know how the television set came to cone off the wall but I remember it being in place at one moment and then after I had had a walk around with Paul HUNT I returned to the bench and I saw the glass from the television screen on the floor, but I don't know where the television had gone. The bouncer who I know as Mickey TANNER was standing there when I returned. I remember him saying something like "I don’t care who did it" as if he wasn't worried about the damage I sat down and started talking to a girl called Sam. I don't know where she lives, or her surname, but she works on the Gaywood Pizza shop, in Wootton Road. Also present was a girl called Sue, whose surname I don't know but who I think lives in South Wootton and another girl I don't know. I can't remember whether Gary SEWELL and Tony GORMAN there at this time. I then remember Gary and Tony being there, and the fact that Gary was being a bit loud. One of the bouncers, who had short dark hair, came and had a word with Gary and told him to quieten down. All three of us decided it was time to leave. I got up and walked out with the girl called Sue and I think that Gary SEWELL followed on behind us. I don't know what happened to Tony GOREMAN at this time. I walked outside and went to the top of the stairs outside where I waited for the other two. Gary SEWELL kept coming up and then going back into the club looking for Tony. I was standing at the top of the stairs in doorway of the snooker club. I was aware that there were couples coming out of the club, walking up the stairs, when I saw that there was a bit of a scuffle taking place at the bottom of the stairs. I do not know who was involved in the scuffle but I assumed it, was bouncers because I could see white shirts. I then remember seeing Gary SEWELL being held against the wall of the top of the stairs by the bouncer Mickey TANNER. The bouncer had Gary held around the throat by I think one hand, but I do not know which hand. They were arguing and had their faces very close to each other. I then saw Mickey TANNER head butt Gary SEWELL in the face. I started to walk towards them, when I saw another of the bouncers running up the stairs. I would describe him as being in his mid thirties, with short cropped hair, who I think is called MOORE. He split Mickey TANNER up from Gary SEWELL. As Gary turned away I saw that he had a cut above his eye, and I saw that Mickey had a cut on his forehead, and that his shirt was covered in blood. Gary then walked past me and towards the Tuesday Market Place. I then become aware that there was another scuffle at the top of the stairs when a girl, either fell or was pushed down the stairs. I then saw the girl hobble back up the stairs, and stand again the wall at the top of the stairs. I then saw a man who I know as Carl SxxxxxxN standing near the top of the stairs, who said something like "It was the bald one down there," and at the same time was pointing down the stairs. I then remember seeing Tony GOREMAN come walking up the stairs, and Tony kept saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry." Another woman nearby who I don't know said to Tony something like "You pushed her down the stairs," or "You made her fall." Again Tony said "I'm sorry." He repeated this about three times. I then saw that Sue was walking away, and so I said to Tony "See you," and then walked away to catch up with Sue. I walked straight across the Market Place with Sue and Sam and another girl who I didn't know. I walked to the Maydens Head and then I walked towards the High Street, towards McDonalds. As we were walking the bouncer Mickey TANNER ran up to me and I said to him "What’s the matter” I saw that his shirt was covered in blood, he said to me "Where's your mate." By this time I had already seen Gary leave the Market Place down past the Tudor Rose. I did not see Tony again so I don't know whether he followed Gary. When Mickey TANNER asked me where they had gone I was just coming up to the Lloyds Bank and I didn't tell him where Gary had gone, but just pointed vaguely behind me. He called me "a lying cunt" and just ran past me, and then down the cobbled lane, which runs down past the side of the Lloyds Bank. Mickey TANNER was on his own but a few moments later the bouncer who I know as MOORE came running up and I just pointed where Mickey TANNER had run. MOORE ran after him, I then stopped outside the phone box whilst the girls used the telephone. Sam then waited outside the phone box for her boyfriend whilst I carried on walking into the High Street with Sue and the other girl. We then turned left into Norfolk Street and walked towards the road. As we were walking along the part of Norfolk Street which is an actual road a Cavalier Car (I don't know the colour) pulled up. I saw that Sam was in the passenger seat and I therefore assumed that the driver was her boyfriend Mark COTTON although I had never seen him before. Sue and the other girl then went over to the car and after having a brief word they returned. I do not know whether they spoke to either the passenger or the driver or both. At this time we were down near Chicago’s on the opposite side of the road near an alleyway. The car had originally come from the direction of the Tuesday Market Place, and so was facing Railway Road. As the two girls were walking away from the car, and back towards me, the car pulled away, and then pulled across the road towards the side of the road where I was standing. The car stopped and the driver sat and stared at me. He then got out of the car and walked up to me. He said something to me, though I can't remember what he said, or what it was about, and then he hit me with a clenched fist in the right hand side of my mouth. I do not know which hand he hit me with, but as a result of this assault on me I now have a fat lip, and a cut on the inside of my lip. He then got back into the car and drove off, and I saw that Sue and the other girl were standing waiting for me in the nearby alleyway. I had intended to share a cab home with Sue, but the other girl said that Sue could stay with her in her flat in Norfolk Street, and so I just walked home on my own. As I walked away, just after being hit I realised that Terry MAHOFFER was also walking down Norfolk Street, behind me. He was with a group of two to three other people who I didn't know. He called me by my name and then laughed as he said something like "This is a good night, you've just been hit and your mates been beaten up and is out cold near the Lattice House." I think he said something about a rugby shirt but I can't really remember. It didn't really sink in and so I just carried on walking home. I would describe the clothes Gary SEWELL "Was wearing as follows:- Brown kicker boots, blue jeans and a red and grey rugby shirt, whilst Tony GOREMAN was wearing blue jeans, brown suede shoes and an England Rugby shirt with a rose on the left side of the chest. It is red and white or red, white and blue. Over the course of the evening I had had seven pints of lager and one vodka, whilst the other two had had eight pints each. Although I was merry I wouldn't describe myself as having been drunk and my recollection of the events is reasonably clear.
Statement completed at 1515 hrs 2.3.91.
R J WHITE SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN
PLACE:
TIME: DATE: 020391
WITNESS TO SIGNATURE: R J WHITE
OFFICERS SIGNATURE: DC 448
RE: Jason Colman
So here we have at last on the face of it what would appear to be some very damning evidence. Don’t start jumping up and down because this statement only goes to prove the Police had jumped in both feet 1st, before fully gathering all the evidence. Let’s look at it from a Police perspective though first. What have we got?
!. I’m arrested after running past the deceased covered in blood.
2. The Bar staff don’t have anything nice to say about me. Including I appeared drunk and on drugs
3. I’ve admitted head butting Gary Sewell, Gorman’s friend.
4. I’m already well known to the Police.
I would be the 1st to say I can understand the Police having their suspicions. Who wouldn’t? But you see what the Old Bill failed to do was gather all the evidence before finally making their minds up. Jason Colman’s statement proves that without doubt and I’ll tell you why. Let’s go back to the map that I used earlier on. If Jason Colman had been right I would have had to leave the club and follow the blue route assault Gorman and then either:
!. Get back to the club via one of the Green routes or
2. Run off then come back and run past the body, when I was seen by the Police and arrested.
Now the Police must have been sure it was the 2nd . That’s why Colman’s statement stands out as complete and utter lies. Firstly there were lots of statements that describe the incident with Sewell outside the club. There was not one single statement that said I left the area they all say I went back inside, most of them say I was bleeding. So when the Bar staff say I returned to the bar had a drink wiped my head etc, that was after having the fight with Sewell. Secondly there was never a single statement taken from the 100+ witnesses that saw me returning to the club via one of the Green routes. You will soon see that the only time I left the club was via the Red route. So why did Jason Colman say he saw me. I’ll get to that soon but 1st I’ll post the statements that prove I did in fact take the Red route. One from the other friend of Sewell and Gorman, Robert White.
Wednesday 6 February 2008
Jason Colman
NORFOLK POLICE HEADQUARTERS STATION
NAME: JASON SIMON COLMAN
ADDRESS:
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 20 031111970
OCCUPATION: TECHNICIAN
Who states: This statement consisting of 3 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge; and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED: 030391
J S COLMAN (SIGNED)
I am Jason Simon COLMAN and I live at the address overleaf.
On Friday, 1st March 1991 I went out for the evening with four friends Mark BANHAM, Colin LORD, Clifford ELLISS and Terry, I don't knew his surname, he lives in Tilney or Terrington and works at Saddlebow sugar factory with Mark. We went out at 9 pm and went around various pubs in town. I had quite a bit to drink during the evening, drinking a number of pints of lager. I was merry towards the end of the night. I was wearing jeans, white training shoes, a mustard coloured T shirt and a woolen button up cardigan with vertical slim black and grey stripes. It was mainly grey with black stripes. Mark was wearing; jeans and a white shirt, a light blue ski type jacket and brown shoes. Clifford was wearing jeans I think black training shoes and a white shirt. Terry was wearing jeans, I can't remember what else. Colin was wearing jeans, a white shirt and a brown suit jacket with a light pin stripe. We went to the Cellar Bar arriving just before 11 pm. The bar was busy at the time and remained so during the evening. Inside we met up with Gary DAW, his girlfriend Shelley who is Clifford's sister, Caroline who works in the Pizza Gallery and her friend I don't know. Gary was wearing reasonably smart shirt and trousers, I can't remember what colours. We spent the evening in the area near the bar, between the bar the square pillar and the back wall. At about 12.45 am. I was aware of a scuffle which originated from the Disco area. I didn't see who was involved or what actually happened. I saw a bouncer with short blond hair, flat top type who I believe was Micky TEAL taking someone out of the bar from the area of the scuffle. I didn't see who was taken out. Caroline's friend had left prior to this. At closing time when the lights came on I left my drink and left the bar with Mark, Colin, Terry, Clifford and Caroline. I think Gary and Shelley left just before us. As we went upstairs into the street a crowd of people were just standing around. I noticed a man leaning against the wall at the top of the stairs. He was wearing a distinctive squared rugby shirt in red, green and white coloured squares. He had blond hair, in his late 20's, biggish build, about 5'11" tall. We walked through the crowd into the Tuesday Market place. I was following the friends I'd left with. I heard a scuffle and shouting behind me but couldn't see what was happening as the crowd obstructed my view. We all walked to Barclays Bank where Caroline got some money. We then walked diagonally across the market place into St. Nicholas Street. As we were about half way along, level with the car park on our right, I heard and then saw the man in the distinct! Rugby shirt run past us from behind. He was being chased by three men. I recognized the leading two as a doorman at the Cellar Bar and Carl SXXXXXX. They were followed by Micky TEAL. The doorman was in the entrance to the Cellar Bar when we arrived this evening. He was in his late 20's or early 30's, tall about 5'11", broad build with blond hair, straight which was longer at the back just over his collar with a slightly flicked over fringe. He was wearing a white shirt and I think trousers of a dark colour. Micky was dressed similar. Carl SXXXXXX was wearing a white or light blue shirt. I can't remember his trousers or shoes. As the man reached the solicitors building at the end of the car park he was stopped by one or two of them but immediately broke free. We stopped mid way along the car park. The man ran off again and turned right in the road towards Norfolk Street. I could see diagonally across the car park and saw this same man was stopped again outside the Lattice House pub on the opposite pavement. I couldn't see who stopped him but the man went down to the ground but all three joined in kicking him on the ground. I couldn't see where the kicks were landing. It appeared they continually kicked him for a minute or more. All three then ran off towards Norfolk Street and out of my view. Clifford then left us. The remainder of us walked up to the man. He was lying on his back in the gutter on the opposite side to the Lattice House with his right arm on the pavement. His head towards Norfolk Street. His face was a mess, blood was pumping out but I couldn't see where from. He sounded as if he was gargling. I ran up to Glebe taxis further down the road and told the man behind the desk to get an ambulance as someone had had a kicking. I then went back to the man followed by I think another man from Glebe Taxis. Me and Mark put the injured man in the recovery position. We waited for a while, it seemed a long while at the time, but was probably only minutes until a police car pulled up with two policemen. One got out with a torch. At this point Micky TEAL came back from the direction of Norfolk Street followed by the other blonde doorman. Micky said something like, we've had him. We want the other cunt." They jogged straight past and the police car with the driver went off after them. We all then left. I went home by taxi with Mark, Colin, Terry and Caroline went in a separate taxi. We went with Crown Cars. I just know Micky TEAL by name and sight. I have done so for couple of years as he is a bouncer around town. I've known of Carl SXXXXXX for about three and a half years from friends. He's not a man I speak to but see him occasionally in the Cellar Bar and he was in Lynn News and Advertiser and other papers about a year ago showing off his muscles. I believe this was to do with a show at LA'S. I have seen the other doorman on other occasions at the Cellar Bar. I think he may also have been at the Globe Hotel as a doorman. There is no doubt in my mind that these men who assaulted this man were Carl SXXXXXX, Micky TEAL and the other blonde doorman. Others persons I saw in the Cellar Bar during the evening were Steven BURKE the D.J., Raymond EDGELEY who lives in Front Way and Simon FOX who lives in Mariners Way. I would describe Micky TEAL as in his late 20's, about 5'11" to 6' tall, broad built with blonde hair with a flattish top and short at the sides and back. Carl SXXXXXX is about 25 years old, about 5'7" tall possibly smaller, muscular build and broad, he has blonde brown short spikey hair with gel on. He sometimes wears glasses but didn't have them on this night. As Micky TEAL ran past me in St. Nicholas Street I noticed he had blood on the chest of his shirt. I had a clear and unobstructed view across the car park. Cars were parked near me one; on the far side but not in the middle. Street lighting was on in St. Nicholas Street and outside The Lattice House which lit up all the events and people I've described.
J S COLMAN SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN
PLACE:
TIME: DATE: 030391
WITNESS TO SIGNATURE:
OFFICERS SIGNATURE: DC586 HAWKINS
NAME: JASON SIMON COLMAN
ADDRESS:
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 20 031111970
OCCUPATION: TECHNICIAN
Who states: This statement consisting of 3 pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge; and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
DATED: 030391
J S COLMAN (SIGNED)
I am Jason Simon COLMAN and I live at the address overleaf.
On Friday, 1st March 1991 I went out for the evening with four friends Mark BANHAM, Colin LORD, Clifford ELLISS and Terry, I don't knew his surname, he lives in Tilney or Terrington and works at Saddlebow sugar factory with Mark. We went out at 9 pm and went around various pubs in town. I had quite a bit to drink during the evening, drinking a number of pints of lager. I was merry towards the end of the night. I was wearing jeans, white training shoes, a mustard coloured T shirt and a woolen button up cardigan with vertical slim black and grey stripes. It was mainly grey with black stripes. Mark was wearing; jeans and a white shirt, a light blue ski type jacket and brown shoes. Clifford was wearing jeans I think black training shoes and a white shirt. Terry was wearing jeans, I can't remember what else. Colin was wearing jeans, a white shirt and a brown suit jacket with a light pin stripe. We went to the Cellar Bar arriving just before 11 pm. The bar was busy at the time and remained so during the evening. Inside we met up with Gary DAW, his girlfriend Shelley who is Clifford's sister, Caroline who works in the Pizza Gallery and her friend I don't know. Gary was wearing reasonably smart shirt and trousers, I can't remember what colours. We spent the evening in the area near the bar, between the bar the square pillar and the back wall. At about 12.45 am. I was aware of a scuffle which originated from the Disco area. I didn't see who was involved or what actually happened. I saw a bouncer with short blond hair, flat top type who I believe was Micky TEAL taking someone out of the bar from the area of the scuffle. I didn't see who was taken out. Caroline's friend had left prior to this. At closing time when the lights came on I left my drink and left the bar with Mark, Colin, Terry, Clifford and Caroline. I think Gary and Shelley left just before us. As we went upstairs into the street a crowd of people were just standing around. I noticed a man leaning against the wall at the top of the stairs. He was wearing a distinctive squared rugby shirt in red, green and white coloured squares. He had blond hair, in his late 20's, biggish build, about 5'11" tall. We walked through the crowd into the Tuesday Market place. I was following the friends I'd left with. I heard a scuffle and shouting behind me but couldn't see what was happening as the crowd obstructed my view. We all walked to Barclays Bank where Caroline got some money. We then walked diagonally across the market place into St. Nicholas Street. As we were about half way along, level with the car park on our right, I heard and then saw the man in the distinct! Rugby shirt run past us from behind. He was being chased by three men. I recognized the leading two as a doorman at the Cellar Bar and Carl SXXXXXX. They were followed by Micky TEAL. The doorman was in the entrance to the Cellar Bar when we arrived this evening. He was in his late 20's or early 30's, tall about 5'11", broad build with blond hair, straight which was longer at the back just over his collar with a slightly flicked over fringe. He was wearing a white shirt and I think trousers of a dark colour. Micky was dressed similar. Carl SXXXXXX was wearing a white or light blue shirt. I can't remember his trousers or shoes. As the man reached the solicitors building at the end of the car park he was stopped by one or two of them but immediately broke free. We stopped mid way along the car park. The man ran off again and turned right in the road towards Norfolk Street. I could see diagonally across the car park and saw this same man was stopped again outside the Lattice House pub on the opposite pavement. I couldn't see who stopped him but the man went down to the ground but all three joined in kicking him on the ground. I couldn't see where the kicks were landing. It appeared they continually kicked him for a minute or more. All three then ran off towards Norfolk Street and out of my view. Clifford then left us. The remainder of us walked up to the man. He was lying on his back in the gutter on the opposite side to the Lattice House with his right arm on the pavement. His head towards Norfolk Street. His face was a mess, blood was pumping out but I couldn't see where from. He sounded as if he was gargling. I ran up to Glebe taxis further down the road and told the man behind the desk to get an ambulance as someone had had a kicking. I then went back to the man followed by I think another man from Glebe Taxis. Me and Mark put the injured man in the recovery position. We waited for a while, it seemed a long while at the time, but was probably only minutes until a police car pulled up with two policemen. One got out with a torch. At this point Micky TEAL came back from the direction of Norfolk Street followed by the other blonde doorman. Micky said something like, we've had him. We want the other cunt." They jogged straight past and the police car with the driver went off after them. We all then left. I went home by taxi with Mark, Colin, Terry and Caroline went in a separate taxi. We went with Crown Cars. I just know Micky TEAL by name and sight. I have done so for couple of years as he is a bouncer around town. I've known of Carl SXXXXXX for about three and a half years from friends. He's not a man I speak to but see him occasionally in the Cellar Bar and he was in Lynn News and Advertiser and other papers about a year ago showing off his muscles. I believe this was to do with a show at LA'S. I have seen the other doorman on other occasions at the Cellar Bar. I think he may also have been at the Globe Hotel as a doorman. There is no doubt in my mind that these men who assaulted this man were Carl SXXXXXX, Micky TEAL and the other blonde doorman. Others persons I saw in the Cellar Bar during the evening were Steven BURKE the D.J., Raymond EDGELEY who lives in Front Way and Simon FOX who lives in Mariners Way. I would describe Micky TEAL as in his late 20's, about 5'11" to 6' tall, broad built with blonde hair with a flattish top and short at the sides and back. Carl SXXXXXX is about 25 years old, about 5'7" tall possibly smaller, muscular build and broad, he has blonde brown short spikey hair with gel on. He sometimes wears glasses but didn't have them on this night. As Micky TEAL ran past me in St. Nicholas Street I noticed he had blood on the chest of his shirt. I had a clear and unobstructed view across the car park. Cars were parked near me one; on the far side but not in the middle. Street lighting was on in St. Nicholas Street and outside The Lattice House which lit up all the events and people I've described.
J S COLMAN SIGNED
STATEMENT TAKEN
PLACE:
TIME: DATE: 030391
WITNESS TO SIGNATURE:
OFFICERS SIGNATURE: DC586 HAWKINS
The Plod and my Blog
Let me just state the purpose of this Blog isn't to bash the Poice Force. I know it may seem that way sometimes but that isn't intentional. When my venom spews out understand it's a reaction to the hopeless way in which this investigation was carried out. The purpose is to show the evidence the Police had at the time. Remember what I'm producing is copies of statements and interviews the Police had taken at the time. So understand I'm going to be pissed off when I see they choose to ignore thing's that I feel are relevant. For example a witness who claims one of the attackers had a blue and white hooped rugby shirt on, Sewell saying they all had black or brown hair, another witness saying they wasn't wearing anything light coloured as it would of stood out. Of course I'm going to be pissed. Wouldn't you be?
Later on I will give you 2 examples of how I don't tar all the Police with the same brush. The 2 Officers concerned won't even realize the respect I have for them. I'll get to that later so keep reading.
Later on I will give you 2 examples of how I don't tar all the Police with the same brush. The 2 Officers concerned won't even realize the respect I have for them. I'll get to that later so keep reading.
RE:Gary Sewell 2nd Interview
I want to go over the Gary Sewell interview but before I do let me 1st talk about 1 of the Officers conducting it, Detective Sergeant peter newton. I realize that should be capital p, capital n. I have no respect for the man and can’t bring myself to show any. If this investigation failed it was for one reason and one reason alone, DS peter newton. You see you could say we went way back. I had had numerous run ins with mr newton and he always came off second best. How best to describe him without offending all the short fat bastards in the world. peter newton was a copper from the old school, a short overweight chain smoking plod who would never have advanced to the dizzy heights of Detective Sergeant in today’s modern Police Force. Hardly an athlete he would probably break into a sweat at the mere mention of the word “jog”. He probably thought all his Christmases had come at once when he heard my name mentioned along with the Murder. I’m not going to sit here and make out I know everything but I can imagine mr newton taking the call and immediately reaching for some blinkers and cotton wool. He wasn’t going to let ANYBODY convince him it wasn’t me. I would be surprised if newton didn’t have money on it being me. He would definitely be one of the 1st to be shouting it from the rooftops. All I’d like to say to him now is “hey pete you’ve still got some egg on ya chin”.
Back to the interview with Sewell. If DS newton was doing his job properly how did he miss the fact that Sewell said when asked by him about the colour of the attacker’s hair
Q.
Do you know the colour of their hair?
R:
I'd say that was black, dark brown.
Q
Dark hair.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
All three? I mean were they neat haircuts? You know people who'd been to Barbers like you, got fairly neat haircuts or not?
R.
Yeah.
For those that don’t know me my hair is blond. He asked about different names who might have been the attackers but never mine, why was that peter?
Picture this; you’ve got a man who’s the friend of the dead man. He claims the attackers came up and spoke to him before killing his mate. In custody you’ve got someone who is the main suspect who your witness knows and has spoke about all the way through the interview. How many Police Forces up and down the country wouldn’t have just once asked “was Micky Teal one of those that came up to you”? NEVER in any of his interviews and I know I’ve mentioned it in my previous Blogs Never was he asked that one simple question. WHY the fuck not peter? So all you fucking idiots that for years have thought I did it and got away with it. Start taking note this investigation was flawed from the start and it was flawed quite simply because of the ineptitude of the prats conducting the inquiries. If peter newton had taken his blinkers off and taken the cotton wool out that he had stuffed in his fucking ears then maybe someone would be serving time for the Murder of Anthony Gorman. If you don’t like what I’m saying peter go ahead and fucking sue me I don’t care!!
If there’s anything I’m qualified on it’s the Tony Gorman Murder, I could get a degree in it. I’ve studied it that much. Anyway back to Sewell, he mentions he thought one of them was eating something chips or a kebab in a white wrapper. In any other Murder investigation this may be a new line of inquiry a new lead to follow but in this one it’s discarded probably like the wrapper itself. Why? Cos it doesn’t fit, it doesn’t implicate me of course. newton and frost might as well of being sitting there with i Pods on cos they weren’t listening to a fucking word Sewell said. He even tried to throw in the possibility that whoever had knocked Gorman down the stairs outside the club may be involved but that was skirted over. Sewell’s hands are mentioned quite a lot and it was months later when I saw pictures of them that I could fully understand why. If he did those punching walls then he obviously has no nerve endings in his hands. They were swollen beyond believe they looked as though someone had drove over them with a bus. They weren’t the same as when I had taken the piss out of Sewell by squeezing them. He has an injury to his head he explains away as messing about
Q.
How did you get that other cut? I know you've obviously got the one with stitches in, what about the other side of your head? Where did you get that from?
R:
What?
Q:
The mark....
Q:
It's not a cut, it's just a mark. You've got a mark over your left eye as well on the forehead. A bit hi... a bit mo.... further out towards the temple. There.
Q:
There that's it.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Yeah it goes across here look.
Q:
That's it, that's it.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Probably done it messing about, I don't know, probably done it, I don't know how I done it.
24.56:
Q.
Cause didn't you say to Micky when you was telling him about this problem you'd had in the toilet, did you say, have I got a black eye?"
R.
Yeah I said to him, have I, have I got a black eye?"
Q;
Had you been hit in the eye?
R.
No I was pushed up against a wall.
Q:
Sorry?
R.
When I got pushed up against a wall. Well I haven't got a black eye.
Q:
No.
R.
No.
Q:
Now do you know anything more about this lad who pushed you up against the wall?
R:
No,
Q.
Did you say something back to him I mean if you did I mean...
R:
I, I… I probably just said to him, "Alright then," you know, "Leave it out;" or "That ain't got nothing to do with you this is my mate Tony;" or something like that.
Q:
But Tony was talking to this lad.
R.
Who was talking to......
Q.
And they were, they were okay, there was no problem with them?
R.
No and Tony just got a bit of the hump with me because I said, -"Come on Ton, let's go downstairs now." And he said, "Look Gary;" he said, "This bloke was friendly with my brother who died;" he said, "I just thought I'd talk to him about my brother."
Q:
So he remained there talking did he?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
So wh... what point did you then go and hit the wall?
R.
Well that bloke pushed me up by the toilets and you know what I mean I was angry so I just hit the wall by the stairs....
Another opportunity lost. If you have a mark over your eye you don’t know about so you say probably done it messing about. If he had said I did it I would understand that. But messing about I don’t think so cos he then tries to blame this mystery bloke in the toilets, who incidentally is never discovered. Another thing I’ll just throw in, Robert White the other friend of Sewell and Gorman is also assaulted later that night in Norfolk St. Are any of these assaults linked by the Police or even investigated? Don’t be bloody stupid. Three men all out together in the Cellar Bar all assaulted that night one dying. Is there a link? We’ll never know because yet again it wasn’t investigated.
Let me give you another example of how I know Sewell was lying. He’s asked did I say anything to him outside the Club just prior to me head butting him.
Did he say something to you? Did you say anything at all?
R:
Let me have that bastard or something.
Q:
Or would it not have been something like, "Don't tell me how to do my job."?
R:
Could have been something like that, yeah.
Q.
Well is that, was that said or don't you remember?
R.
Well yeah, probably words to some effect and then I, I turned round and said to him about why, why do you want to sort of hit Tony, he just doing his job or something like that. You, you are right there. You are right.
So he’s gone from me saying “Let me have that bastard or something “to “Don’t tell me how to do my job." Completely different things. Gary Sewell was hiding something that night and the Police FAILED to find out what it was.
Again Sewell was asked about Karl Sxxxxxxn:
Q.
Well you obviously know Carl?
R.
Yeah Carl.
Q.
Carl SxxxxxxN was down there.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was he one of the three?
R:
No.
Q.
Are you absolutely certain? Are you absolutely certain?
Q.
Yeah that weren’t Carl.
Q.
Look, look definite. I mean look if, if you don't trying to protect people....
R:
I'm not trying to protect no-one
So how was poor old Karl ever charged? Read on
If Sewell comes across to you as a man who has got nothing to hide than you’re as stupid as the idiots investigating this Murder.
Back to the interview with Sewell. If DS newton was doing his job properly how did he miss the fact that Sewell said when asked by him about the colour of the attacker’s hair
Q.
Do you know the colour of their hair?
R:
I'd say that was black, dark brown.
Q
Dark hair.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
All three? I mean were they neat haircuts? You know people who'd been to Barbers like you, got fairly neat haircuts or not?
R.
Yeah.
For those that don’t know me my hair is blond. He asked about different names who might have been the attackers but never mine, why was that peter?
Picture this; you’ve got a man who’s the friend of the dead man. He claims the attackers came up and spoke to him before killing his mate. In custody you’ve got someone who is the main suspect who your witness knows and has spoke about all the way through the interview. How many Police Forces up and down the country wouldn’t have just once asked “was Micky Teal one of those that came up to you”? NEVER in any of his interviews and I know I’ve mentioned it in my previous Blogs Never was he asked that one simple question. WHY the fuck not peter? So all you fucking idiots that for years have thought I did it and got away with it. Start taking note this investigation was flawed from the start and it was flawed quite simply because of the ineptitude of the prats conducting the inquiries. If peter newton had taken his blinkers off and taken the cotton wool out that he had stuffed in his fucking ears then maybe someone would be serving time for the Murder of Anthony Gorman. If you don’t like what I’m saying peter go ahead and fucking sue me I don’t care!!
If there’s anything I’m qualified on it’s the Tony Gorman Murder, I could get a degree in it. I’ve studied it that much. Anyway back to Sewell, he mentions he thought one of them was eating something chips or a kebab in a white wrapper. In any other Murder investigation this may be a new line of inquiry a new lead to follow but in this one it’s discarded probably like the wrapper itself. Why? Cos it doesn’t fit, it doesn’t implicate me of course. newton and frost might as well of being sitting there with i Pods on cos they weren’t listening to a fucking word Sewell said. He even tried to throw in the possibility that whoever had knocked Gorman down the stairs outside the club may be involved but that was skirted over. Sewell’s hands are mentioned quite a lot and it was months later when I saw pictures of them that I could fully understand why. If he did those punching walls then he obviously has no nerve endings in his hands. They were swollen beyond believe they looked as though someone had drove over them with a bus. They weren’t the same as when I had taken the piss out of Sewell by squeezing them. He has an injury to his head he explains away as messing about
Q.
How did you get that other cut? I know you've obviously got the one with stitches in, what about the other side of your head? Where did you get that from?
R:
What?
Q:
The mark....
Q:
It's not a cut, it's just a mark. You've got a mark over your left eye as well on the forehead. A bit hi... a bit mo.... further out towards the temple. There.
Q:
There that's it.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Yeah it goes across here look.
Q:
That's it, that's it.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Probably done it messing about, I don't know, probably done it, I don't know how I done it.
24.56:
Q.
Cause didn't you say to Micky when you was telling him about this problem you'd had in the toilet, did you say, have I got a black eye?"
R.
Yeah I said to him, have I, have I got a black eye?"
Q;
Had you been hit in the eye?
R.
No I was pushed up against a wall.
Q:
Sorry?
R.
When I got pushed up against a wall. Well I haven't got a black eye.
Q:
No.
R.
No.
Q:
Now do you know anything more about this lad who pushed you up against the wall?
R:
No,
Q.
Did you say something back to him I mean if you did I mean...
R:
I, I… I probably just said to him, "Alright then," you know, "Leave it out;" or "That ain't got nothing to do with you this is my mate Tony;" or something like that.
Q:
But Tony was talking to this lad.
R.
Who was talking to......
Q.
And they were, they were okay, there was no problem with them?
R.
No and Tony just got a bit of the hump with me because I said, -"Come on Ton, let's go downstairs now." And he said, "Look Gary;" he said, "This bloke was friendly with my brother who died;" he said, "I just thought I'd talk to him about my brother."
Q:
So he remained there talking did he?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
So wh... what point did you then go and hit the wall?
R.
Well that bloke pushed me up by the toilets and you know what I mean I was angry so I just hit the wall by the stairs....
Another opportunity lost. If you have a mark over your eye you don’t know about so you say probably done it messing about. If he had said I did it I would understand that. But messing about I don’t think so cos he then tries to blame this mystery bloke in the toilets, who incidentally is never discovered. Another thing I’ll just throw in, Robert White the other friend of Sewell and Gorman is also assaulted later that night in Norfolk St. Are any of these assaults linked by the Police or even investigated? Don’t be bloody stupid. Three men all out together in the Cellar Bar all assaulted that night one dying. Is there a link? We’ll never know because yet again it wasn’t investigated.
Let me give you another example of how I know Sewell was lying. He’s asked did I say anything to him outside the Club just prior to me head butting him.
Did he say something to you? Did you say anything at all?
R:
Let me have that bastard or something.
Q:
Or would it not have been something like, "Don't tell me how to do my job."?
R:
Could have been something like that, yeah.
Q.
Well is that, was that said or don't you remember?
R.
Well yeah, probably words to some effect and then I, I turned round and said to him about why, why do you want to sort of hit Tony, he just doing his job or something like that. You, you are right there. You are right.
So he’s gone from me saying “Let me have that bastard or something “to “Don’t tell me how to do my job." Completely different things. Gary Sewell was hiding something that night and the Police FAILED to find out what it was.
Again Sewell was asked about Karl Sxxxxxxn:
Q.
Well you obviously know Carl?
R.
Yeah Carl.
Q.
Carl SxxxxxxN was down there.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was he one of the three?
R:
No.
Q.
Are you absolutely certain? Are you absolutely certain?
Q.
Yeah that weren’t Carl.
Q.
Look, look definite. I mean look if, if you don't trying to protect people....
R:
I'm not trying to protect no-one
So how was poor old Karl ever charged? Read on
If Sewell comes across to you as a man who has got nothing to hide than you’re as stupid as the idiots investigating this Murder.
Tuesday 5 February 2008
Gary Sewell 2nd Taped Interview
NORFOLK POLICE HEADQUARTERS STATION
NAME: GARY SEWELL
ADDRESS:
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 23 11011968
OCCUPATION ENVIROMENTAL SEVICES TECHNICIAN
Who states:- This statement consisting of pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
PERSON INTERVIEVIED: Gary William SEWELL.
PLACE OF INTERVIEW. Interview Room No. 2. Kings Lynn Police station. DATE OF INTERVIEW: 2nd March, 1991.
TIME COMMENCED: 1819 TIME CONCLUDED; 1903.
TAPE REFERENCE NUMBER(S) :> DA/424/91.
MASTER TAPE NUMBER(S); 1.
INTERVIEWING OFFICER (S); Detective Sergeant NEWTON Kings Lynn C.I.D. Detective Constable FROST Kings Lynn C.I.D.
ANY OTHER(S) PRESENT: Ray RANSOME - Solicitor of Kenneth BUSH & CO.
Q.
Okay I'll tell you at the end of this interview I'll serve you with another notice again which explains to you what happens to the tapes etc. You remember that from last time.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
We'll say that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Are you happy there's just the four of us in this room?
R.
Yeah.
Q. 1.07:
Okay we just want to clarify one or two points with you Gary.
R.
Yeah okay.
Q:
Firstly have you got a nickname?
R:
Have I got a nickname?
Q:
Yeah.
R.
No sometimes they used to call me Squirrel....
Q.
Yeah.
R:
When I used to work at Anglia Canners that's all.
Q.
Yeah and people call you Squirrel quite a bit still?
R.
No... Only when I used to work at Anglia Canners.
Q.
Yeah. Well your names come up.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
And they've used the nickname of Squirrel. Do you know anybody else that might have been in the Cellar Bar last night that might have been nicknamed Squirrel?
R.
No, no (inaudible mumbling).
Q:
(Inaudible).
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Okay let's. I just want to go back to something that, Happened in the Cellar Bar. When you were with Tony did he have a little bit of a problem with a chappie in there? Was there a little bit of a confrontation with somebody when Micky TEAL actually took him out of the Club towards the end there?
R.
I didn't know he took him out of the Club
Q: He took him out to the bottom of the stairs.
R:
No I don't, I don't know.
Q:
Well where were you then?
R:
When when was that then?
Q.
That was oh... not too far from the end, not too far before closing time.
R
I didn't know um Mick took him out there. I was probably just walking about.
Q:
You see what what Mick is saying that Tony got into a bit of a problem with a fella. .
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And he, he looked as if he was going to hit this fella.
R.
Yeah. .
Q.
So Micky TEAL gr... Got hold of him, took him outside.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And then kicked him out of the place basically.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Then a little while later Tony came back down and came back in.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Now do you remember him any of that?
R:
I, I didn't even know he'd got chucked out. I, no I didn't know he got chucked out of the place.
Q:
Not at all?
R.
No, not at all, honestly. I didn't know he get chucked out. All.. like I say all I know when we left (inaudible) I was waiting for Tony at the top of the stairs and er you know I waited a few minutes or so and I went down to see where he was and he was on, you know, sort of middle of the stairs with Carl SXXXXXXN.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
And Carl started to have a go at him and that and they were sort of exchanging sort of words and then Carl said; "I'll get Micky on to you, he'll sort you out;" you know or something like that so I said, "Come on Carl leave it out, we don't want no hassle and that. Went back down into the, the Cellar when, when Carl went down there to get Micky and I told Micky, "Look just leave it out, you've got to forget about it." And then I come up the stairs with Micky trying to sort of separate him so he didn't go up there because you know, up the stairs and I think Carl might have been behind, behind me and then Micky just grabbed hold of me round the neck.
4.03:
Q.
Where was Tony all this time?
R:
Well Tony, I think Tony went back up the stairs.
Q.
Is it not right that Micky TEAL had his arm round Tony and brought him up the stairs?
R.
I don't know.
Q.
And you were at the top and you started arguing and then TEAL grabbed hold or you and gave you a couple of head buts or whatever.
R.
I went down the stairs into the Cellar Bar and come up the stairs with, with err Micky.
Q
Um
R.
Yeah and then when I got up the stairs he grabbed hold of me and just sort of choked me very.... I couldn't breath
Q.
Ah-ha.
R:
And he just started head butting me.
Q.
Ah-ha.
R:
He just kept bang, bang, bang, bang, head butting me
Q:
What happened to your hands?
R:
I haven't got a clue you know, like when.....
Q:
Well (coughs) didn't you have a bit of a problem earlier on in the evening?
R:
Someone pushed me yeah, but I didn't hit no-one.
Q.
Well didn't you go and tell people that you'd hit somebody and showed them your hands?
R:
No, my hands like that all the time right and I said to Micky
Q.
Well let's have a look at your hands like that.
Q.
Not like that they're not.
R.
I mean they're all, they're all bruised and didn't Micky squeeze your hand?
5.17:
R.
No, no he didn't honestly.
Q.
Well there's more than one person has said....
R.
Yeah.
Q.
That you had had a bit of a problem.....
R: (Inaudible - mumbling).
Q:
In, in the toilet.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
With a bloke.
R:
And I told, I told you I said I told Micky about it and Micky said, "You you point him out to me and I'll go and have him.”
Q:
That’s, that's right.
R:
That's it.
Q.
And what happened in the toilet then
R.
Well he just sort of pushed me up against a wall.
Q.
This bloke did?
R
Yeah.
Q.
Why?
R.
Err, I don't know. I went up to the toilet right and Tony was talking to this bloke he knew, because his brother died not so long ago. Tony’s brother and he was talking to this bloke and about his brother and this bloke knew his brother right and they was chatting and that. I went up there and Tony said to me you know, "Fuck off Gary, I just want to, I just got to talk this bloke about my brother." I said.”Alright then mate;" and then this bloke said, "Yeah don't you start;" and pushed me up against the wall.
Q.
And did you hit him?
R:
No honestly.
Q.
Well what happened to your hands?
R:
That's, that's what happened you know when, in self defence.
Q.
I don't know Gary.
Q.
Self defence against what?
R:
Well Micky brought me up the stairs and grabbed hold of me.
Q.
Well, how're you going to get... Micky said you didn't hit him.
R:
Well I, I said to you I didn't think I hit Micky didn't I?
Q.
No, and he confirms that, he says you didn't hit him.
Q.
Gary look it is imperative, very very important we get the full story of what happened last night.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Obviously we want to find out who did this to your friend, okay?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And the only way we'll find out is if you tell us all the truth. If you've done something wrong then you've done something wrong and that's all there is to it.....
R.
I.
Q.
But we've got to get the full story. We we want more names out of you.You must know some more names.
R:
Honestly I don't know no more names honestly.
Q.
But, come on Gary look, the thing......
Q:
It's your mate at the end of the day.
R.
I know it's my mate and obviously it's cutting me up.
Q.
I know, but we want.....
Q:
So, let's have a few more names here.
R:
I don't know any, honesty that is the honest truth.
Q
You used that place; you're a Lynn lad aren't you?
R:
Yeah I...
Q:
You're you're lived there how old are you?
R:
Twenty-three.
Q:
You've got to know.
R:
I've lived there four years.
Q.
Lived where? In Lynn four years.
R.
Yeah four years.
Q.
Right.
R.
I've I've only just started going out down the Nigntclubs or down the Cellar Bar.
Q.
(Inaudible).
R.
With with Tony within the last year
Q:
Within a year you meet alot of people don't you in different places.
R:
I suppose you do, yeah.
Q.
You just have a chat and even if you know their nicknames. You know just try and think who. Who was at the top of the stairs when you got your hiding?
R.
I just don't know honestly. Honestly...
7.58:
Q:
Who was at the top of the stairs when you, before you went down to go and get Tony then?
Q.
I think Rob.... Robert WHITE he was up there.
Q.
Yeah.
R:
And that's all I think was up there, and that......
Q:
Well was there, was there many people up there?
R.
I don't know, I just... people were coming out you know, I didn't take no notice because you know, people were just leaving as usual when I was sort of waiting at the top of the stairs and Rob was up there as well and I thought well come on Ton and I went down to see where he was and he was half way down the stairs.
Q.
Arguing with Carl?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
About what?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
Do you know about a girl following him downstairs?
R.
No.
Q:
No.
R
No.
Q.
And Tony might have done it either accidentally or on purpose or whatever and he was getting the blame for this girl falling downstairs. Do you know anything about that?
R.
No, no not at all.
Q.
So where were you when all of this happened?
R:
I don't know, I was, I was probably up the top of the stairs by then. Honestly I, look I know nothing about that at all.
Q.
How much had you had to drink?
R.
About five pints.
Q.
So you weren't drunk then were you?
R
No.
Q.
Gary look those hands right...
R:
Alright then I'll tell you right. We was fucking about, hitting the wall alright, but I know I feel a cunt now, but we was messing about sort of jabbing the wall alright.
Q:
Which wall?
R.
The wall by the you know as you come down the stairs, the wall
Q.
In the Cellar Bar?
R:
Yeah. What go up like that.
Q.
Well whereabouts is that then Gary?
R:
What?
Q:
Where were you hitting the wall?
R.
Er you know those, no not, not them stairs, the stairs to the toilet.
Q.
So you'd been to the loo?
R:
That bloke....is it... that bloke sort of had a go at me and I was just angry do you know what I mean.
Q:
So you hit the wall?
R:
So I jabbed the wall a couple of times with my hand.
Q
What and done that?
R:
Yeah honest truth.
9:56:
Q.
Why?
R.
It's better than hitting someone in't it?
Q:
Well I suppose so, I think I'd rather put my hands in my pocket
(inaudible)
R:
Do you know what I mean?
Q:
Yeah, so you hit the wall?
R:
Yeah and that is the honest truth.
Q
So what did you do.....
Q:
But why didn't you tell us that to start with?
R.
I didn't think that was relevant.
Q.
Everything's relevant, everything you can think of, every little......
Q.
I mean when you're got somebody, somebody who's been killed by being beaten to death and you've got swollen hands, what are we supposed to think? I mean why didn't you come out and say, "I know I'm a bloody Fool, but I was hitting a wall?"
R.
(Inaudible – mumbling)
Q.
I know it's nice when it stops I suppose that's the only thing in that
Q.
So what did you do then go and see what did, did you go and see anyone about that. Did you tell anyone?
R. Yeah I to... I didn't tell Micky I hit a wall.
Q:
What did you say?
R:
I said to Micky, "You know, someone is sort of giving some hassle up there." I said, "He's got blond hair, sort of down like that Micky said, “If you see him tell me who he is and I’ll, I'll set about him."
Q:
You implied to Micky that you had hit the bloke then had a bit of grief with him did you?
R.
But I said to Mick you know I sort of hassled him back.
Q.
So you, to be the big man.
R. Yeah.
Q.
Is that what it is?
R:
Yeah. Just trying to stick up for myself in front of Micky you know.
Q:
Urn.
Q:
Why is that, why should you st... In front of him. I mean what's so special about him?
R
Oh he just.
Q:
Hard man?
R:
Yeah he's a hard man in't he, you know you don't want to feel small, you want to tell tell him that's someone’s has hassled you, but you don't want to feel small yourself do you?
Q.
And who was there when, when you were hitting the wall?
R.
Err I don't know, honestly.
Q:
Was Bob there?
R.
Rob might have been there, I don’t know
Q.
Rob...Rob you call him is it. Robert WHITE?
R.
Robert WHITE or Bob or Rob whatever
Q.
Have you um hit the wall before when you've had a drink?
R.
No
Q.
Um
R.
No
Q.
Well if you have you have.
R:
No I haven't.
Q.
If you want to get rid of your pent up aggression, what do you do? Do you hit the wall?
R:
Yeah, I don't usually get aggressed very much you know, but like I say....
Q.
But you're doing yourself a hell of a lot of damage doing that, a hell of a lot of damage aren’t you?
R.
Yeah, but its better now in't it.
12.06:
Q.
Look Gary, do you understand us when we say we want to know everything?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Every little thing that went on in that place?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Because we've got to build up a picture
R:
I know.
Q:
And every missing part of that jigsaw has got to be filled.
R:
That's right yeah.
Q.
So I mean we have been told....
R:
Yeah.
Q:
That Tony got booted out by Micky TEAL because he was having agro or was being aggressive towards somebody else.
R
Yeah well I don't know nothing about that at all. That is the honest
truth, I swear on my life that I don’t know nothing about him getting
(Inaudible mumbling).
Q.
Does Tony get aggressive?
R:
But he's just a typical Londoner, you got to know how to take him you know. He's sort of Cocky a bit, you know, a lad and that and you know.
12.49:
Q.
What else happened outside Gary that you hadn't told us? What hap... what else can you think of? Try and think, take your time.
R.
I can't think, honestly.
Q:
Keep, keep, try and think.
Q.
Its names of people who were at the top who may have followed you out. I mean these, you're telling us or you told us in the previous interview.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
That you were with Tony at near Level House near to the Tuesday Market Place down from the Maids or whatever
Q.
When three blokes who you'd never seen before.
R.
Yeah
Q.
Came up to you.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Now that takes a bit of believing that at that time of night.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Which you're looking at round about one o'clock time aren't you?
R.
Yeah probably, something like that.
Q.
Round about that time. Just happened to be there and when you think about it logically in that area, all the pubs were closed.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Yeah, and the only place that was open in that immediate area was the Cellar Bar?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Right?
R.
That's right.
Q.
The clubs would still be going strong...
R:. .
Yeah.
Q.
And they wouldn't be kicking out till two.
R
No.
Q;
So you, what we call.. that's the sort of the period of time where the pub people are generally home...
R.
Yeah.
Q:
You know and the Club people are inside...
R:
That's right yean.
Q:
So the only people you would think generally would be in that area are people who came from the Cellar Bar aren't there.
R:
Yeah.
Q;
I mean when you think about it logically that's about right isn't it?
R:
That's right yeah.
Q.
Now think about these boys now you, you visit the Cellar Bar how often?
R:
Once, once a month something like that.
Q:
Once every fortnight, once every month, somet.... around that. I was told once a fortnight, but do you say once a month?
R.
Once a month when I get paid usually.
Q.
Okay. Now just think these lads you must have seen them before. Just think who you know. Go through the names of people that were in that bar that you know.
R.
Er I know er Andrew, I can't think of his his last name he live by me.
Q.
Was he one of the three?
R:
No.
Q:
Right.
R.
Er there's a couple of his friends, I don't know the names of but they weren't none of the three neither.
Q:
Yeah.
R:
There was..... there was this...this lady Jill TED who used to work at Anglia Canners, she was there.
Q.
Where does Jill live, do you know?
R.
No.
15.30:
Q:
And who, who was she with any lads or..
R:
No I just see her there, said, "Hello Jill;"...
Q.:
Oh she was just in the bar and you... .
R.
Just talked to her. Er and also there was a couple of lads there, long hairs, is his name Wayne?
Q:
Yeah Wayne
R. He was there.
Q:
A bouncer, what Wayne and his brother?
R.
Yeah they used to bouncer alot as I used......
Q.
Yeah, yeah Wayne and Jay is his brother.
R.
Yeah they was there, but they weren't nothing to do with it...
Q.
No.
R.
(Inaudible) Er I can't think of anything else.
Q.
Well you obviously know Carl?
R.
Yeah Carl.
Q.
Carl SXXXXXXN was down there.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was he one of the three?
R:
No.
Q.
Are you absolutely certain? Are you absolutely certain?
Q.
Yeah that weren’t Carl.
Q.
Look, look definite. I mean look if, if you don't trying to protect people....
R:
I'm not trying to protect no-one
Q:
….Don t.
R:
Because he' s my mate.
Q.
Well that's right....
(Inaudible - all talking at once)
Q.
You've hit it in one. That's right.
Q.
(Inaudible) Let's let's throw some names at people that we know were there. Do you know Bobby HILLS?
R
No.
Q:
You don't know him?
R:
No.
Q-
Do you know Paul FELLOWS?
R:
No.
16.52:
Q:
Who else do we know that was at.....
Q:
Ricky LONG?
R:
No.
Q:
You don't know him either? I'm just going through names of people that we know that were in there.
Q.
Danny SHANE?
R:
Who?
Q:
Danny SHANE?
R.
No.
Q.
David STEWART?
R:
No.
Q:
(Inaudible) He's also know as Nimbo.
R.
No.
Q: .
N..N... Nimbo?
Q.
Nimmo.
R.
Nimmo.
Q:
Nimmo.
R:
I heard that name mentioned Nimmo. Now....
Q.
When?
R:
Through the evening I think when we was having that argument.
Q.
What argument?
R.
You know, when I tried to stop Micky from getting Tony. I thougnt, I thought I heard someone say Nimo.
17.37
Q:
Is he, is he a sort of tall, thin bloke?
R.
He can be described as that yes.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was he one of the people that attacked your mate?
R
No
Q.
Think about those three that attacked.....
R.
Have you got any photographs that I can see or something?
Q.
No.
Q:
Not at this stage no.
Q.
No.
Q:
Look.....
R:
Perhaps if I had something to jog my memory.....
10.07:
Q:
You've got to try and think of the three blokes, you're telling us that there were three blokes that came up and said, "Right you've had a hiding, now it's your mates turn;" or whatever.
R:
Yeah and I was just shitting myself honestly I just wanted to get out you know.
Q.
But I would imagine, I would have thought it's got to be somebody from the Cellar Bar wouldn't you think.....
R:
Yeah....
Q:
Logic....logically.
R:
So you know you said Tony got chucked out of the Cellar Bar?
Q
Yeah.
R.
Now if he got chucked out of the Cellar Bar what, these three, he could had.. had, why did you say he got checked out?
Q:
Sorry?
R:
Why did you say he got chucked out?
Q.
Because he was having a row with somebody or Micky thought he was going to hit somebody. It was sort of one these you know, he was shouting at somebody yet he was only about that far away from you know.
Q:
Nose to nose.....
Q:
Nose to nose sort of....
R:
What about that bloke who he was shouting at, could he have waited for Tony to got outside?
Q:
Well this is what we want.....
Q:
That's right we don't know who he is. Can you tell us who he was?
R:
No I, I didn't see no-one.
Q.
This is why it's so important to try and find everything.
R..
Yeah I didn't see no-one.
Q.
Because, at the and of the day what we want to do is we what to trace everyone and everyone's movement wno was in that area.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Last night. So we know where exactly averyone was.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Every second.
R.
I didn't know he had that arguement.
Q.
Going back to these three lads right?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Who come and spoke to you, alright. Think of any, any form of description however minor, anything about them that you can tell us.
19.42:
R.
I think a couple of them were tall, very tall.
Q:
What do you call tall?
R:
About my height maybe, just a little bit smaller or shorter.
Q:
What are you six foot?
R.
Six foot.
Q:
So about six foot?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
(Inaudible)
R:
And one of them was a bit shorter.
Q.
Yeah
R.
I know one of them was shorter.
Q.
What about their hair anything about the hair?
R.
It was sort of respectable haircut you know, nothing....
Q:
Yeah.
Q:
Earrings?
Q.
Do you know the colour of their hair?
R:
I'd say that was black, dark brown.
Q
Dark hair.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
All three? I mean were they neat haircuts? You know people who'd been to Barbers like you, got fairly neat haircuts or not?
R.
Yeah.
20.35:
Q;
Or kind of scruffy like mine.
R.
Yeah, yeah I mean you know the sort of thing......
R.
Yeah.
Q:
You. know rather than this which is just basically cut. Was it sort of styled hair or was it just cut?
R:
Yeah styled, hair that was styled hair. There's there's one face I can sort of picture it in my mind, but I can't explain it.
Q:
Well close your eyes and tell us, picture it.
Q:
Take your time, there's plenty of time.
R.
You know what I mean if I see some picture if I see it. I think they was eating something when they come up to us.
Q;
They were eating something?
R:
I think yeah.
Q:
Like what?
R:
I don't know, chips or something. I'm sur.. sure that someone had something in their hand. I'm sure.
Q.
Well you say something in their hand, are you sure it was food?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
It wasn't a weapon or anything.
R:
No food.
Q.
You reckon one of them had food? Now what's in that area at that time of night?
R.
Kebab, I don’t know.
Q.
Well that would have to come from there, that would have to come from Norfolk Street wouldn't it which is the nearest Kebab,.wouldn't it?
Q:
You've got two in Norfolk Street.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
But Norfolk Street's the nearest place aren't they?
R:
Norfolk Street, how far is that?
Q:
It's a little way when you consider that they're coming back into the Town aren't they.
R.
Yeah exactly so like I say. Tony had that row and then they, he got chucked out and they went out, then they could have come back and waited for him couldn't they?
22.23:
Q:
Well how would they know;? I can't read that, it doesn't seem right, I mean cause cause he could have gone any time in between them going to get the food and that....
(Inaudible - overtalking)
Q.
.... and if they were going to wait for him I would have suggested they would have either waited in the Club and followed him out or waited outside the club or somewhere. It's not likely that they would have gone and got some food...
R.
No
Q
....to come back is it?
R:
I thought, you know what I mean. I.
Q: Anyone wear glasses?
R:
No.
Q:
Anyone have any facial hair?
R:
No.
Q:
If you saw them how many of the three would you recognise again?
R..
Probably that one.
Q:
Just the one. Di... was he the leader do you feel?
R..
Yeah he's the one.
Q.
He was the one that did the talking?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
What again did he say?
R.
He said something like, like, "You've had a good kicking now, now.it's your turn;" to Tony, something like that you know
(inaudible - too quiet)
23.23:
Q:
Did he say, "You've had a good kicking;" or did he say, "You look as if you've had a good kicking?
R.
I can't remember, something about, "You've....." it could be, "You look like you've had a good kicking now it's you lot;" or "You've had a good kicking, now, now it's your turn."
Q.
You know about this accent you were talking about before....
R:
Yeah. That weren't you know it, oh, I don't know it just sounded sort of clear you know, sort of clear, no... no... no sort of slang, you know what I Mean.
Q.
Hmm.
R:
Like, "You've had a fucking good kicking;” you know like that, they pronounced everything right like that.
Q:
Did thev swear like that? Did they swear?
R.
They did swear yeah, I think he did swear yeah. You know what I mean, once he said that I just didn't want to know, I was off. Do you know what I mean?
Q.
Hmm
Q.
How did you get that other cut? I know you've obviously got the one with stitches in, what about the other side of your head? Where did you get that from?
R:
What?
Q:
The mark....
Q:
It's not a cut, it's just a mark. You've got a mark over your left eye as well on the forehead. A bit hi... a bit mo.... further out towards the temple. There.
Q:
There that's it.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Yeah it goes across here look.
Q:
That's it, that's it.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Probably done it messing about, I don't know, probably done it,, I don't know how I done it.
24.56:
Q.
Cause didn't you say to Micky when you was telling him about this problem you'd had in the toilet, did you say, have I got a black eye?"
R.
Yeah I said to him, have I, have I got a black eye?"
Q;
Had you been hit in the eye?
R.
No I was pushed up against a wall.
Q:
Sorry?
R.
When I got pushed up against a wall. Well I haven't got a black eye.
Q:
No.
R.
No.
Q:
Now do you know anything more about this lad who pushed you up against the wall?
R:
No,
Q.
Did you say something back to him I mean if you did I mean...
R:
I, I… I probably just said to him, "Alright then," you know, "Leave it out;" or "That ain't got nothing to do with you this is my mate Tony;" or something like that.
Q:
But Tony was talking to this lad.
R.
Who was talking to......
Q.
And they were, they were okay, there was no problem with them?
R.
No and Tony just got a bit of the hump with me because I said, -"Come on Ton, let's go downstairs now." And he said, "Look Gary;" he said, "This bloke was friendly with my brother who died;" he said, "I just thought I'd talk to him about my brother."
Q:
So he remained there talking did he?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
So wh... what point did you then go and hit the wall?
R.
Well that bloke pushed me up by the toilets and you know what I mean I was angry so I just hit the wall by the stairs....
Q.
So he would have seen this would he?
R: Well cause Tony was up here. To...
Q.
Yeah I know where you mean. Ton. ...Rob was Rob with you? Did Rob see you hit the wall?
R.
I don't know if he was there or not.
Q.
Well was he there? I mean you know when you leave the loo was he with you?
R.
No.
Q.
Have you before when Rob has been with you, hit the wall?
R.
No, I don't think so.
Q:
No?
R:
No.
We might have... you know have a laugh with each other playing about.
Q.
Do you know what you've done to your hands?
R:
Nothing. Bruised them.
Q.
Strange thing to do in't it, hit walls?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Hmm. What about some more names, think on. You must have been thinking about it while you've been down there surely? Down in the cells haven't you.
R.
I think what a nightmare it is, my mate's gone.
27.21:
Q:
It's a nightmare for you, but think about him and his family. That's, they're the people that are going through it and we've now got to try and catch whoever did it. So you've got to do your bit. Can you think of anything else?
Q.
If there's something that you're worried about, then you know there's nothing to be worried about I mean....
R:
Yeah I know, but I'd tell you everything to help you honestly. I just...
Q:
I mean did Tony say to you at all during the evening, "Cor look at him;" you know sort of, "He's a right bastard;" or anything like this at all where he might have had antagonism which you might not necessarily have known about, that he's had some problems in the past or that night?
R.
Sometimes when we've been out he's got a bit rowdy and you know I've had to say to him, you know he's said to me, "Look at that bastard;" you know and I'd say to him, "Look Tony shut up;" and he's alright, right right as rain. You just tell him to shut up, he's alright, but he he was like that. He was a bit, sort of a bit of a lad you know I mean....
Q:
Who has he had problems with before down there or anywhere else in Town?
R.
There's no there’s nowhere in particular you know what I mean, he'd just he'd just get a bit boisterous. Not towards any certain person. He just you know I mean you just had to sort of tell him to sort of shut up and that and then he was as right as rain again.
29.17:
Q.
When you left did you hear anybody walk up behind you? Did you look behind you to see what happening or anything?
R.
No I just, I didn't, I was just praying that. Honestly I was just, I couldn't believe it, I'd got all blood down my face, I just sort of kept walking on and the next thing you know I s... I.. Tony walked up to me or I see Tony and then we started walking and then like I say them lads came up and said something like, "Oh you've had a good kicking;" or "A fucking good kickinq, now it's your mates time, turn." And Tony replied something, but I don't know what he replied or no I said to them, "Piss off." They started running at Ton or they all started at Ton and that’s it Tony started running and so I just... Tony r... Tony run down there like that and flipped in the middle of the road. They caught him up and I run to the Gold Car Park to walk across there to get out of the way and then Tony was struggling with them and they was kicking and hitting him and he got away and run across there so I I come back again and started to walk down and I see him like turning up round about the Lattice House area and they were just kicking into him, but I just carried on. You know want I mean if I'd have gone up there I'd have probably got it as well wouldn't I?
30.43:
Q:
Yeah, but you can't think I mean you must have seen quite a little bit or ti...seen them for a little bit of time really, er? You saw them in thr..three or four different places didn't you?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
The initial contact, then in the beginning of the car park near the Lattice House and eventually when Tony was on the ground. I appreciate that you were getting further away....
R.
But when he was on the ground I was further.... .yeah.
Q.
I appreciate you were getting further away obviously, but you must, even if it's a colour of a jumper or something like that. What about wear wearing rugbv shirts. Were they wearing norm....
R:
I,I was wearing a rugby shirt.
Q.
You were yeah.
R:
Tony was wearing a rugby shirt.
Q:
Yeah and what about them?
Q:
Were they wearing coats or were they wearing jumpers?
R:
No, yeah I think probably they weren't wearing a coat I don't think, a jumper, I'd say a jumper or a smart shirt or something. I g... you see I, I didn't know it was to happen and so I, I weren't looking out for it if you know what I mean, so.....
Q:
Yeah, but you can recall things.
Q:
I mean really you don't recall an awful lot about anything that Happened last night do you?
R:
No.
Q.
I mean you think about it.
R:
No, I've, I've tried you know, I don't if it's because I got hit in the head, I don't know, but honestly whatever I try it my mind keeps going blank all the time, honestly.
32.03:
Q:
I just hope it's not a case that you're holding back on something that you know.
R.
No, I, I swear.... ' .
Q:
Because that would be very very sad if you are.
R.
Yeah I know it would because....
Q:
For any reason whatsoever if you are holding back it would be very very sad.
R.
Yeah I know, hon... honestly I ain't holding back. I want them people caught, but I... I can't help him....(crying) honestly I can't help.
Q.
It might come to you later on maybe.
R.
I tried. I just can't think.....
Q.
You reckon you've got one face in your mind, now just think about that face. As Mr. (inaudible) said before, close your eyes and just try and picture your fa...picture this face. Is it a fat face, is it a thin face.
R:
Sort of medium face, normal face. Sort of thinnish born structure,
structure you know.
Q:
A bit like mine?
R.
Yeah, actually I should say similar looking to you.
Q.
It weren't me though.
R:
(Laughs) No.... no honestly.
Q.
No I know what you mean, right. So that's a, that's a start isn't it?
R:
That's it yeah.
Q:
Now what else can you remember?
Q.
That don't help the tape Jack saying what you... that it's like you..
Q
Handsome, handsome. (Laughing).
Q:
I mean it's a fairly long face with sort of highish cheek bones and very angular perhaps er?
Q.
Has he got a big nose like that as well? (Laughing). No what about the nose, think about the nose. squashed nose, flat nose, pointed nose?
Q.
Was it a good looking bloke? was he pig ugly?
R.
Just average looking bloke I suppose.
Q.
Pardon?
R:
Just an average looking bloke you know.
Q.
I mean everything you're saying is very average, medium faced, that he might be a bit thin and then he's average looking, I mean.....
R:
Well he weren't, he weren't sort of ugly and he weren't sort of, sort of handsome bloke really, I .mean I don't really look at people and think cor he's a bit of alright you know.
Q:
No that's not what I meant you know.
Q.
No I don't mean that.
R:
He just, he just looked like a normal ......
Q.
He didn't have a nose all over his face or anything like that you know?
Q:
You would certainly notice an ugly bloke?
R:
Yeah, no he were... no I don't think he was an ugly bloke you know, he's a he's a respectable looking bloke yeah.
34.27:
Q.
Are we going to get any further?
Q.
What sort of age do you think? Put an age on him if you can.
R:
22, 23, 24, 25....
Q:
Early twenties is what you said last time.
R
Early twenties, yeah.
Q:
All three?
R.
Yeah, maybe one was a bit younger.
Q:
But you feel that one of them was certainly e... had some food?
R:
Yeah I think he did have some food because I... I think that when they come up to us he ha... He was holding something and eating something,
Q.
Yeah
Q:
Was it the one who spoke to you or not?
R:
Yeah the one that spoke.
Q.
The one that spoke.
R:
Yeah.
35.16:
Q.
Would urn...
R.
He might, he might not have been eating something you know, but he had, I'm sure he had something white in his hands as if that was a, a wrapper of some chips or kebab or something like that.
Q.
So yeah, but you, I mean you're not certain, you feel he had something white in his hands and you're just assuming it was food.
R.
That's right yeah.
Q.
I mean you didn't see it move to his mouth or anything?
R.
See it, it's hard to say in case I'm just imagining it, if you know what I mean. I, I, I know I seen something, but I don't what to say yeah he was, eating them in case it's just my imagination on that you know.
Q.
Umm well I hope you're being truthful with us.
R:
Yeah honestly that's the honest truth.
Q:
I mean if you're not. I mean if you're not we, I'll tell you now that we will find out because there's so many enquiries being done on this....
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Then we're getting to know all the time, various things, various things...
R.
Yeah.
Q.
I mean you've only just seen us two basically, but I can assure you there are a lot more people.
Q.
It's like your hands I mean we, you knew from what we were t... saying to you during this interview and that's why it came out.
Q:
Now why didn't you tell us first time that you hit a wall?
R.
I felt, I felt an idiot, do you know what I mean.
Q
Look that's the last thing that you've got to feel at me moment.
Q:
Well I'm given to understand that you've hit the wall before. That's why I've asked you.
R.
I've hit the wall before?
Q.
Yeah.
R:
Who said?
Q:
Well I've been told that, somebody said that you've got a bit of form for hitting walls when you lose your temper.
Q.
If you have you have.
R:
Er I don't think, I may, I may have hit a wall ages ago, but I, you know, I have hit a wall before then. This in't the first time I've.....
Q.
I don't say it to make us feel better. Have you hit a wall before?
R.
Yeah I have hit a wall before then.
Q.
On on a number of occasions?
R.
Well I don't know, see I know I, I hit a wall.....
Q.
When you've had a drink is that right? R.
What? what if I have a drink, let's, let's just say I don't want to hit anybody just to get rid of aggression.
37.13:
Q:
You'd rather hit the wall than hit a person.
Q:
That's fair enough. It's not an uncommon thing. I wish more people would hit walls rather than other peoole.
R:
Yeah alright.
Q:
That's no problem, that's no problem.
Q.
Why didn't you say that; before. Are you saying that to please us that you hit walls or is this the truth?
R.
That's the truth. I just, I don't know I just
Q.
Look the problem is that I don't understand why you, why you're doing this I mean your friend has been killed and you're worried about not telling us that you hit a wall now that doesn't seem right to me, I mean if it was my friend that was killed I'd say right I got these injuries, I'm a bloody fool, I hit a wall.
R:
Yeah alright then.
Q:
And I would have said hah yeah I believe that until we now, but we do know that you have hit walls before.
R.
Alright then, yeah I have.
Q.
Now what else haven't you told us?
R.
No....
Q.
Something that you might think is very silly, a bit embarrassing, I don't know. Something that might be embarrassing or something that's silly, something, I don't know if that's the case, that you might be worried about the future. No I don't really want... can I leave this out? Something that you, if you are holding back anything for god’s sake let us know.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Is there something that's playing at the back of your mind? To me there seems to be.
Q.
And if your mate don't p... don't p... try and protect Tony if he'd been
inv... Involved with something...
R.
No.
Q:
....earlier on then please for goodness sake you've got to tell us because that will clarify the picture and it may well have been that person who was involved in it earlier on.
R:
Tony is, is a bit rowdy.
Q:
Yeah well that's....
Q.
Is there... is there anything that happened earlier on that day or at any other time you can think that somebody might have a grudge against him, that they might have seen him down The Cellar Bar last night or indeed elsewhere?
R:
You see I, I only see Tony when he come home from work that day and then I see him the next when I went out with him.
Q.
Did you have any trouble in the other two pubs?
R:
No, but, but, when I got to the first pub Tony seemed a bit quiet for some reason, very quiet.
Q.
The first pub?
R:
Yeah the Wild Fowler
Q:
Why, why was that?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
Did you ask him why?
R:
Yeah I did ask him why and he said it was something to do with his tea was repeating, he had a bath with a full belly, straight after he'd had his tea and it was repeating. Yeah he was....
39.23:
Q:
So he just had a little bit of heartburn perhaps or something like that whatever you want to call it.
R.
Yeah and he, he just, he was really, really quiet and strange.
Q:
But he livened up throughout the evening though?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Get a few beers down his neck and he was...
R.
Yeah.
Q;
Improving as the night went on.
R:
That's right yeah.
Q:
Now when he was in the Cellar Bar he got, he got a little bit loud didn't he?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Now, who did he upset in there when he got a bit loud?
R.
Cor, honestly I.....
Q:
I mean don't worry about it if, well if you've told us something that ain't quite right before, now is the time to get it all sorted out.
R.
To tell you right?
Q.
Yeah, don't worry about that, we aren't going to shout at you because at the end of the day we want to know....
R.
That's right you want a picture built up.....
Q:
....(inaudible) So if it is the case that that's what's happened don't hold back.
R.
Alright then, Tony's done it before you know, he's got a bit, got a bit loud with people and I don't really take a lot of notice now because I know what he's like.
Q:
Yeah.
R.
Alright?
Q:
Yeah, but who was he getting loud at? Who did, who did he have this problem with in the Cellar Bar?
R.
I, I didn't, I didn't......
Q.
I mean if he's that loud...
R:
Yeah.
Q:
You would hear him above everybody else perhaps? would you not?
R.
No not over the music could you?
Q:
I don't know, I don't know how loud it was in there, I wasn't there. I'm too old for that sort of thing.
R:
Cause Tony was in there near the end though because I told you he was sitting there.
Q;
A-ha.
R:
And Rob and me and when I got up that telly fell down.
Q.
Yeah
R.
He was there then.
Q:
Yeah.
Q:
But there was... was there any problem over that telly falling down?
Q.
No.
R.
No
Q:
Everybody said that was a pure accident even if you'd have touched it, I mean it wasn't done on purpose so nobody's blaming anybody for that, that was forgotten.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
But after that Tony did have a row or had an arg... an argument with somebody.
R.
That didn't seem half an hour, three-quarters of an hour after that when the disco had finished so I thought I was with Tony nearly all the time you know.
Q:
But he was thrown out.
R:
No.. I... honestly I don't....
Q:
And then you went up the top, he was thrown out and he came back down in again and he was allowed back in.
R:
Yeah I don't know nothing about that.
Q:
And it was then that you may well have been at the time, cause you might well have left....
R:
I might of left then.
Q.
That’s right
R.
And he might, might have gone down and was talking to Carl SXXXXXXN, I understand there was a bit of a sort of a, what is the word for it, fuse between them.
Q:
I think there was an argument yeah.
R:
Yeah, so I tried to sort of, calm it down and then Carl then said, "Oh, you know, fuck you, I'll go and get Micky, he'll fucking sort you out you, you old bastard;" or something like that.
Q.
Well what was there a row about then, what were Tony and Carl arguing about?
R.
I don't know because when, when I waited at the stairs for Tony he weren't there so I just walked over and I heard them sort of arguing. So I just said, "Just leave it out;" I wanted to get home and get Tony out and then Carl went down to get Micky and said something about, "That (inaudible) bastard;" and then Micky said, 'What the one with The rugby shirt on or the one with the short hair, the little short bloke?" and he said "Yeah;" and he said, "I'll go out;" or something; "... and sort him out;" or something, and I said to Micky, "Look leave it out Micky you know he's had a few drinks and that just leave it." And as I was going up the stairs I think Carl was behind me and er then when I got to the top of the stairs I, I sort of had my hands like that on a rail...
Q:
What either side of the stairs?
R:
Yeah that's it. no, sort of on the left hand side like that, and I said,” Just come on Micky leave it alone “and all of a sudden he just grabbed me honestly and he squeezed me neck.
Q:
Did he say something to you? Did you say anything at all?
R:
Let me have that bastard or something.
Q:
Or would it not have been something like, "Don't tell me how to do my job."?
R:
Could have been something like that, yeah.
Q.
Well is that, was that said or don't you remember?
R.
Well yeah, probably words to some effect and then I, I turned round and said to him about why, why do you want to sort of hit Tony, he just doing his job or something like that. You, you are right there. You are right.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Yeah so he did say that then?
R.
Yeah he did say something about like that, but then he said that, but why did he keep headbutting me? Why did he grab me afterwards and...
Q.
Well that I can't, I can't answer why he kept doing that, I don't see any reason why he would want to do that, but that is, there's nothing else you can think of?
R:
Not….
Q.
Are you certain?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
If there is at any time you've got to let us know as soon as possible.
R.
What about, can't I go round Town one day with one of you?
Q:
Well we'll sort that out afterwards look, it's coming to the end of the tape....
Q.
Yeah.
Q:
I haven't got anything further to say.
Q:
I've got nothing else to say.
SOLICITOR:
No I've got nothing.
Q.
No, is, is there anything that... else that you want to say?
R:
I'll just you know try and remember as much as I can.
Q:
Okay. I'll serve you with this.....
R:
.... and I'll, and I'll you know promise that'll I .......(inaudible over talking).
Q.
Do you want; do you want to make a written statement?
SOLICITOR:
No.
R.
No thank you.
Q.
I'll serve you with the notice at the end. The time is now 7.03 and I'll terminate the interview.
44.43.
NAME: GARY SEWELL
ADDRESS:
AGE / DATE OF BIRTH: 23 11011968
OCCUPATION ENVIROMENTAL SEVICES TECHNICIAN
Who states:- This statement consisting of pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
PERSON INTERVIEVIED: Gary William SEWELL.
PLACE OF INTERVIEW. Interview Room No. 2. Kings Lynn Police station. DATE OF INTERVIEW: 2nd March, 1991.
TIME COMMENCED: 1819 TIME CONCLUDED; 1903.
TAPE REFERENCE NUMBER(S) :> DA/424/91.
MASTER TAPE NUMBER(S); 1.
INTERVIEWING OFFICER (S); Detective Sergeant NEWTON Kings Lynn C.I.D. Detective Constable FROST Kings Lynn C.I.D.
ANY OTHER(S) PRESENT: Ray RANSOME - Solicitor of Kenneth BUSH & CO.
Q.
Okay I'll tell you at the end of this interview I'll serve you with another notice again which explains to you what happens to the tapes etc. You remember that from last time.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
We'll say that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Are you happy there's just the four of us in this room?
R.
Yeah.
Q. 1.07:
Okay we just want to clarify one or two points with you Gary.
R.
Yeah okay.
Q:
Firstly have you got a nickname?
R:
Have I got a nickname?
Q:
Yeah.
R.
No sometimes they used to call me Squirrel....
Q.
Yeah.
R:
When I used to work at Anglia Canners that's all.
Q.
Yeah and people call you Squirrel quite a bit still?
R.
No... Only when I used to work at Anglia Canners.
Q.
Yeah. Well your names come up.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
And they've used the nickname of Squirrel. Do you know anybody else that might have been in the Cellar Bar last night that might have been nicknamed Squirrel?
R.
No, no (inaudible mumbling).
Q:
(Inaudible).
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Okay let's. I just want to go back to something that, Happened in the Cellar Bar. When you were with Tony did he have a little bit of a problem with a chappie in there? Was there a little bit of a confrontation with somebody when Micky TEAL actually took him out of the Club towards the end there?
R.
I didn't know he took him out of the Club
Q: He took him out to the bottom of the stairs.
R:
No I don't, I don't know.
Q:
Well where were you then?
R:
When when was that then?
Q.
That was oh... not too far from the end, not too far before closing time.
R
I didn't know um Mick took him out there. I was probably just walking about.
Q:
You see what what Mick is saying that Tony got into a bit of a problem with a fella. .
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And he, he looked as if he was going to hit this fella.
R.
Yeah. .
Q.
So Micky TEAL gr... Got hold of him, took him outside.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And then kicked him out of the place basically.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Then a little while later Tony came back down and came back in.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Now do you remember him any of that?
R:
I, I didn't even know he'd got chucked out. I, no I didn't know he got chucked out of the place.
Q:
Not at all?
R.
No, not at all, honestly. I didn't know he get chucked out. All.. like I say all I know when we left (inaudible) I was waiting for Tony at the top of the stairs and er you know I waited a few minutes or so and I went down to see where he was and he was on, you know, sort of middle of the stairs with Carl SXXXXXXN.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
And Carl started to have a go at him and that and they were sort of exchanging sort of words and then Carl said; "I'll get Micky on to you, he'll sort you out;" you know or something like that so I said, "Come on Carl leave it out, we don't want no hassle and that. Went back down into the, the Cellar when, when Carl went down there to get Micky and I told Micky, "Look just leave it out, you've got to forget about it." And then I come up the stairs with Micky trying to sort of separate him so he didn't go up there because you know, up the stairs and I think Carl might have been behind, behind me and then Micky just grabbed hold of me round the neck.
4.03:
Q.
Where was Tony all this time?
R:
Well Tony, I think Tony went back up the stairs.
Q.
Is it not right that Micky TEAL had his arm round Tony and brought him up the stairs?
R.
I don't know.
Q.
And you were at the top and you started arguing and then TEAL grabbed hold or you and gave you a couple of head buts or whatever.
R.
I went down the stairs into the Cellar Bar and come up the stairs with, with err Micky.
Q
Um
R.
Yeah and then when I got up the stairs he grabbed hold of me and just sort of choked me very.... I couldn't breath
Q.
Ah-ha.
R:
And he just started head butting me.
Q.
Ah-ha.
R:
He just kept bang, bang, bang, bang, head butting me
Q:
What happened to your hands?
R:
I haven't got a clue you know, like when.....
Q:
Well (coughs) didn't you have a bit of a problem earlier on in the evening?
R:
Someone pushed me yeah, but I didn't hit no-one.
Q.
Well didn't you go and tell people that you'd hit somebody and showed them your hands?
R:
No, my hands like that all the time right and I said to Micky
Q.
Well let's have a look at your hands like that.
Q.
Not like that they're not.
R.
I mean they're all, they're all bruised and didn't Micky squeeze your hand?
5.17:
R.
No, no he didn't honestly.
Q.
Well there's more than one person has said....
R.
Yeah.
Q.
That you had had a bit of a problem.....
R: (Inaudible - mumbling).
Q:
In, in the toilet.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
With a bloke.
R:
And I told, I told you I said I told Micky about it and Micky said, "You you point him out to me and I'll go and have him.”
Q:
That’s, that's right.
R:
That's it.
Q.
And what happened in the toilet then
R.
Well he just sort of pushed me up against a wall.
Q.
This bloke did?
R
Yeah.
Q.
Why?
R.
Err, I don't know. I went up to the toilet right and Tony was talking to this bloke he knew, because his brother died not so long ago. Tony’s brother and he was talking to this bloke and about his brother and this bloke knew his brother right and they was chatting and that. I went up there and Tony said to me you know, "Fuck off Gary, I just want to, I just got to talk this bloke about my brother." I said.”Alright then mate;" and then this bloke said, "Yeah don't you start;" and pushed me up against the wall.
Q.
And did you hit him?
R:
No honestly.
Q.
Well what happened to your hands?
R:
That's, that's what happened you know when, in self defence.
Q.
I don't know Gary.
Q.
Self defence against what?
R:
Well Micky brought me up the stairs and grabbed hold of me.
Q.
Well, how're you going to get... Micky said you didn't hit him.
R:
Well I, I said to you I didn't think I hit Micky didn't I?
Q.
No, and he confirms that, he says you didn't hit him.
Q.
Gary look it is imperative, very very important we get the full story of what happened last night.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Obviously we want to find out who did this to your friend, okay?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
And the only way we'll find out is if you tell us all the truth. If you've done something wrong then you've done something wrong and that's all there is to it.....
R.
I.
Q.
But we've got to get the full story. We we want more names out of you.You must know some more names.
R:
Honestly I don't know no more names honestly.
Q.
But, come on Gary look, the thing......
Q:
It's your mate at the end of the day.
R.
I know it's my mate and obviously it's cutting me up.
Q.
I know, but we want.....
Q:
So, let's have a few more names here.
R:
I don't know any, honesty that is the honest truth.
Q
You used that place; you're a Lynn lad aren't you?
R:
Yeah I...
Q:
You're you're lived there how old are you?
R:
Twenty-three.
Q:
You've got to know.
R:
I've lived there four years.
Q.
Lived where? In Lynn four years.
R.
Yeah four years.
Q.
Right.
R.
I've I've only just started going out down the Nigntclubs or down the Cellar Bar.
Q.
(Inaudible).
R.
With with Tony within the last year
Q:
Within a year you meet alot of people don't you in different places.
R:
I suppose you do, yeah.
Q.
You just have a chat and even if you know their nicknames. You know just try and think who. Who was at the top of the stairs when you got your hiding?
R.
I just don't know honestly. Honestly...
7.58:
Q:
Who was at the top of the stairs when you, before you went down to go and get Tony then?
Q.
I think Rob.... Robert WHITE he was up there.
Q.
Yeah.
R:
And that's all I think was up there, and that......
Q:
Well was there, was there many people up there?
R.
I don't know, I just... people were coming out you know, I didn't take no notice because you know, people were just leaving as usual when I was sort of waiting at the top of the stairs and Rob was up there as well and I thought well come on Ton and I went down to see where he was and he was half way down the stairs.
Q.
Arguing with Carl?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
About what?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
Do you know about a girl following him downstairs?
R.
No.
Q:
No.
R
No.
Q.
And Tony might have done it either accidentally or on purpose or whatever and he was getting the blame for this girl falling downstairs. Do you know anything about that?
R.
No, no not at all.
Q.
So where were you when all of this happened?
R:
I don't know, I was, I was probably up the top of the stairs by then. Honestly I, look I know nothing about that at all.
Q.
How much had you had to drink?
R.
About five pints.
Q.
So you weren't drunk then were you?
R
No.
Q.
Gary look those hands right...
R:
Alright then I'll tell you right. We was fucking about, hitting the wall alright, but I know I feel a cunt now, but we was messing about sort of jabbing the wall alright.
Q:
Which wall?
R.
The wall by the you know as you come down the stairs, the wall
Q.
In the Cellar Bar?
R:
Yeah. What go up like that.
Q.
Well whereabouts is that then Gary?
R:
What?
Q:
Where were you hitting the wall?
R.
Er you know those, no not, not them stairs, the stairs to the toilet.
Q.
So you'd been to the loo?
R:
That bloke....is it... that bloke sort of had a go at me and I was just angry do you know what I mean.
Q:
So you hit the wall?
R:
So I jabbed the wall a couple of times with my hand.
Q
What and done that?
R:
Yeah honest truth.
9:56:
Q.
Why?
R.
It's better than hitting someone in't it?
Q:
Well I suppose so, I think I'd rather put my hands in my pocket
(inaudible)
R:
Do you know what I mean?
Q:
Yeah, so you hit the wall?
R:
Yeah and that is the honest truth.
Q
So what did you do.....
Q:
But why didn't you tell us that to start with?
R.
I didn't think that was relevant.
Q.
Everything's relevant, everything you can think of, every little......
Q.
I mean when you're got somebody, somebody who's been killed by being beaten to death and you've got swollen hands, what are we supposed to think? I mean why didn't you come out and say, "I know I'm a bloody Fool, but I was hitting a wall?"
R.
(Inaudible – mumbling)
Q.
I know it's nice when it stops I suppose that's the only thing in that
Q.
So what did you do then go and see what did, did you go and see anyone about that. Did you tell anyone?
R. Yeah I to... I didn't tell Micky I hit a wall.
Q:
What did you say?
R:
I said to Micky, "You know, someone is sort of giving some hassle up there." I said, "He's got blond hair, sort of down like that Micky said, “If you see him tell me who he is and I’ll, I'll set about him."
Q:
You implied to Micky that you had hit the bloke then had a bit of grief with him did you?
R.
But I said to Mick you know I sort of hassled him back.
Q.
So you, to be the big man.
R. Yeah.
Q.
Is that what it is?
R:
Yeah. Just trying to stick up for myself in front of Micky you know.
Q:
Urn.
Q:
Why is that, why should you st... In front of him. I mean what's so special about him?
R
Oh he just.
Q:
Hard man?
R:
Yeah he's a hard man in't he, you know you don't want to feel small, you want to tell tell him that's someone’s has hassled you, but you don't want to feel small yourself do you?
Q.
And who was there when, when you were hitting the wall?
R.
Err I don't know, honestly.
Q:
Was Bob there?
R.
Rob might have been there, I don’t know
Q.
Rob...Rob you call him is it. Robert WHITE?
R.
Robert WHITE or Bob or Rob whatever
Q.
Have you um hit the wall before when you've had a drink?
R.
No
Q.
Um
R.
No
Q.
Well if you have you have.
R:
No I haven't.
Q.
If you want to get rid of your pent up aggression, what do you do? Do you hit the wall?
R:
Yeah, I don't usually get aggressed very much you know, but like I say....
Q.
But you're doing yourself a hell of a lot of damage doing that, a hell of a lot of damage aren’t you?
R.
Yeah, but its better now in't it.
12.06:
Q.
Look Gary, do you understand us when we say we want to know everything?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Every little thing that went on in that place?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Because we've got to build up a picture
R:
I know.
Q:
And every missing part of that jigsaw has got to be filled.
R:
That's right yeah.
Q.
So I mean we have been told....
R:
Yeah.
Q:
That Tony got booted out by Micky TEAL because he was having agro or was being aggressive towards somebody else.
R
Yeah well I don't know nothing about that at all. That is the honest
truth, I swear on my life that I don’t know nothing about him getting
(Inaudible mumbling).
Q.
Does Tony get aggressive?
R:
But he's just a typical Londoner, you got to know how to take him you know. He's sort of Cocky a bit, you know, a lad and that and you know.
12.49:
Q.
What else happened outside Gary that you hadn't told us? What hap... what else can you think of? Try and think, take your time.
R.
I can't think, honestly.
Q:
Keep, keep, try and think.
Q.
Its names of people who were at the top who may have followed you out. I mean these, you're telling us or you told us in the previous interview.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
That you were with Tony at near Level House near to the Tuesday Market Place down from the Maids or whatever
Q.
When three blokes who you'd never seen before.
R.
Yeah
Q.
Came up to you.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Now that takes a bit of believing that at that time of night.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Which you're looking at round about one o'clock time aren't you?
R.
Yeah probably, something like that.
Q.
Round about that time. Just happened to be there and when you think about it logically in that area, all the pubs were closed.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Yeah, and the only place that was open in that immediate area was the Cellar Bar?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Right?
R.
That's right.
Q.
The clubs would still be going strong...
R:. .
Yeah.
Q.
And they wouldn't be kicking out till two.
R
No.
Q;
So you, what we call.. that's the sort of the period of time where the pub people are generally home...
R.
Yeah.
Q:
You know and the Club people are inside...
R:
That's right yean.
Q:
So the only people you would think generally would be in that area are people who came from the Cellar Bar aren't there.
R:
Yeah.
Q;
I mean when you think about it logically that's about right isn't it?
R:
That's right yeah.
Q.
Now think about these boys now you, you visit the Cellar Bar how often?
R:
Once, once a month something like that.
Q:
Once every fortnight, once every month, somet.... around that. I was told once a fortnight, but do you say once a month?
R.
Once a month when I get paid usually.
Q.
Okay. Now just think these lads you must have seen them before. Just think who you know. Go through the names of people that were in that bar that you know.
R.
Er I know er Andrew, I can't think of his his last name he live by me.
Q.
Was he one of the three?
R:
No.
Q:
Right.
R.
Er there's a couple of his friends, I don't know the names of but they weren't none of the three neither.
Q:
Yeah.
R:
There was..... there was this...this lady Jill TED who used to work at Anglia Canners, she was there.
Q.
Where does Jill live, do you know?
R.
No.
15.30:
Q:
And who, who was she with any lads or..
R:
No I just see her there, said, "Hello Jill;"...
Q.:
Oh she was just in the bar and you... .
R.
Just talked to her. Er and also there was a couple of lads there, long hairs, is his name Wayne?
Q:
Yeah Wayne
R. He was there.
Q:
A bouncer, what Wayne and his brother?
R.
Yeah they used to bouncer alot as I used......
Q.
Yeah, yeah Wayne and Jay is his brother.
R.
Yeah they was there, but they weren't nothing to do with it...
Q.
No.
R.
(Inaudible) Er I can't think of anything else.
Q.
Well you obviously know Carl?
R.
Yeah Carl.
Q.
Carl SXXXXXXN was down there.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was he one of the three?
R:
No.
Q.
Are you absolutely certain? Are you absolutely certain?
Q.
Yeah that weren’t Carl.
Q.
Look, look definite. I mean look if, if you don't trying to protect people....
R:
I'm not trying to protect no-one
Q:
….Don t.
R:
Because he' s my mate.
Q.
Well that's right....
(Inaudible - all talking at once)
Q.
You've hit it in one. That's right.
Q.
(Inaudible) Let's let's throw some names at people that we know were there. Do you know Bobby HILLS?
R
No.
Q:
You don't know him?
R:
No.
Q-
Do you know Paul FELLOWS?
R:
No.
16.52:
Q:
Who else do we know that was at.....
Q:
Ricky LONG?
R:
No.
Q:
You don't know him either? I'm just going through names of people that we know that were in there.
Q.
Danny SHANE?
R:
Who?
Q:
Danny SHANE?
R.
No.
Q.
David STEWART?
R:
No.
Q:
(Inaudible) He's also know as Nimbo.
R.
No.
Q: .
N..N... Nimbo?
Q.
Nimmo.
R.
Nimmo.
Q:
Nimmo.
R:
I heard that name mentioned Nimmo. Now....
Q.
When?
R:
Through the evening I think when we was having that argument.
Q.
What argument?
R.
You know, when I tried to stop Micky from getting Tony. I thougnt, I thought I heard someone say Nimo.
17.37
Q:
Is he, is he a sort of tall, thin bloke?
R.
He can be described as that yes.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Was he one of the people that attacked your mate?
R
No
Q.
Think about those three that attacked.....
R.
Have you got any photographs that I can see or something?
Q.
No.
Q:
Not at this stage no.
Q.
No.
Q:
Look.....
R:
Perhaps if I had something to jog my memory.....
10.07:
Q:
You've got to try and think of the three blokes, you're telling us that there were three blokes that came up and said, "Right you've had a hiding, now it's your mates turn;" or whatever.
R:
Yeah and I was just shitting myself honestly I just wanted to get out you know.
Q.
But I would imagine, I would have thought it's got to be somebody from the Cellar Bar wouldn't you think.....
R:
Yeah....
Q:
Logic....logically.
R:
So you know you said Tony got chucked out of the Cellar Bar?
Q
Yeah.
R.
Now if he got chucked out of the Cellar Bar what, these three, he could had.. had, why did you say he got checked out?
Q:
Sorry?
R:
Why did you say he got chucked out?
Q.
Because he was having a row with somebody or Micky thought he was going to hit somebody. It was sort of one these you know, he was shouting at somebody yet he was only about that far away from you know.
Q:
Nose to nose.....
Q:
Nose to nose sort of....
R:
What about that bloke who he was shouting at, could he have waited for Tony to got outside?
Q:
Well this is what we want.....
Q:
That's right we don't know who he is. Can you tell us who he was?
R:
No I, I didn't see no-one.
Q.
This is why it's so important to try and find everything.
R..
Yeah I didn't see no-one.
Q.
Because, at the and of the day what we want to do is we what to trace everyone and everyone's movement wno was in that area.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Last night. So we know where exactly averyone was.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Every second.
R.
I didn't know he had that arguement.
Q.
Going back to these three lads right?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Who come and spoke to you, alright. Think of any, any form of description however minor, anything about them that you can tell us.
19.42:
R.
I think a couple of them were tall, very tall.
Q:
What do you call tall?
R:
About my height maybe, just a little bit smaller or shorter.
Q:
What are you six foot?
R.
Six foot.
Q:
So about six foot?
R:
Yeah.
Q.
(Inaudible)
R:
And one of them was a bit shorter.
Q.
Yeah
R.
I know one of them was shorter.
Q.
What about their hair anything about the hair?
R.
It was sort of respectable haircut you know, nothing....
Q:
Yeah.
Q:
Earrings?
Q.
Do you know the colour of their hair?
R:
I'd say that was black, dark brown.
Q
Dark hair.
R:
Yeah.
Q.
All three? I mean were they neat haircuts? You know people who'd been to Barbers like you, got fairly neat haircuts or not?
R.
Yeah.
20.35:
Q;
Or kind of scruffy like mine.
R.
Yeah, yeah I mean you know the sort of thing......
R.
Yeah.
Q:
You. know rather than this which is just basically cut. Was it sort of styled hair or was it just cut?
R:
Yeah styled, hair that was styled hair. There's there's one face I can sort of picture it in my mind, but I can't explain it.
Q:
Well close your eyes and tell us, picture it.
Q:
Take your time, there's plenty of time.
R.
You know what I mean if I see some picture if I see it. I think they was eating something when they come up to us.
Q;
They were eating something?
R:
I think yeah.
Q:
Like what?
R:
I don't know, chips or something. I'm sur.. sure that someone had something in their hand. I'm sure.
Q.
Well you say something in their hand, are you sure it was food?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
It wasn't a weapon or anything.
R:
No food.
Q.
You reckon one of them had food? Now what's in that area at that time of night?
R.
Kebab, I don’t know.
Q.
Well that would have to come from there, that would have to come from Norfolk Street wouldn't it which is the nearest Kebab,.wouldn't it?
Q:
You've got two in Norfolk Street.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
But Norfolk Street's the nearest place aren't they?
R:
Norfolk Street, how far is that?
Q:
It's a little way when you consider that they're coming back into the Town aren't they.
R.
Yeah exactly so like I say. Tony had that row and then they, he got chucked out and they went out, then they could have come back and waited for him couldn't they?
22.23:
Q:
Well how would they know;? I can't read that, it doesn't seem right, I mean cause cause he could have gone any time in between them going to get the food and that....
(Inaudible - overtalking)
Q.
.... and if they were going to wait for him I would have suggested they would have either waited in the Club and followed him out or waited outside the club or somewhere. It's not likely that they would have gone and got some food...
R.
No
Q
....to come back is it?
R:
I thought, you know what I mean. I.
Q: Anyone wear glasses?
R:
No.
Q:
Anyone have any facial hair?
R:
No.
Q:
If you saw them how many of the three would you recognise again?
R..
Probably that one.
Q:
Just the one. Di... was he the leader do you feel?
R..
Yeah he's the one.
Q.
He was the one that did the talking?
R.
Yeah.
Q.
What again did he say?
R.
He said something like, like, "You've had a good kicking now, now.it's your turn;" to Tony, something like that you know
(inaudible - too quiet)
23.23:
Q:
Did he say, "You've had a good kicking;" or did he say, "You look as if you've had a good kicking?
R.
I can't remember, something about, "You've....." it could be, "You look like you've had a good kicking now it's you lot;" or "You've had a good kicking, now, now it's your turn."
Q.
You know about this accent you were talking about before....
R:
Yeah. That weren't you know it, oh, I don't know it just sounded sort of clear you know, sort of clear, no... no... no sort of slang, you know what I Mean.
Q.
Hmm.
R:
Like, "You've had a fucking good kicking;” you know like that, they pronounced everything right like that.
Q:
Did thev swear like that? Did they swear?
R.
They did swear yeah, I think he did swear yeah. You know what I mean, once he said that I just didn't want to know, I was off. Do you know what I mean?
Q.
Hmm
Q.
How did you get that other cut? I know you've obviously got the one with stitches in, what about the other side of your head? Where did you get that from?
R:
What?
Q:
The mark....
Q:
It's not a cut, it's just a mark. You've got a mark over your left eye as well on the forehead. A bit hi... a bit mo.... further out towards the temple. There.
Q:
There that's it.
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Yeah it goes across here look.
Q:
That's it, that's it.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Probably done it messing about, I don't know, probably done it,, I don't know how I done it.
24.56:
Q.
Cause didn't you say to Micky when you was telling him about this problem you'd had in the toilet, did you say, have I got a black eye?"
R.
Yeah I said to him, have I, have I got a black eye?"
Q;
Had you been hit in the eye?
R.
No I was pushed up against a wall.
Q:
Sorry?
R.
When I got pushed up against a wall. Well I haven't got a black eye.
Q:
No.
R.
No.
Q:
Now do you know anything more about this lad who pushed you up against the wall?
R:
No,
Q.
Did you say something back to him I mean if you did I mean...
R:
I, I… I probably just said to him, "Alright then," you know, "Leave it out;" or "That ain't got nothing to do with you this is my mate Tony;" or something like that.
Q:
But Tony was talking to this lad.
R.
Who was talking to......
Q.
And they were, they were okay, there was no problem with them?
R.
No and Tony just got a bit of the hump with me because I said, -"Come on Ton, let's go downstairs now." And he said, "Look Gary;" he said, "This bloke was friendly with my brother who died;" he said, "I just thought I'd talk to him about my brother."
Q:
So he remained there talking did he?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
So wh... what point did you then go and hit the wall?
R.
Well that bloke pushed me up by the toilets and you know what I mean I was angry so I just hit the wall by the stairs....
Q.
So he would have seen this would he?
R: Well cause Tony was up here. To...
Q.
Yeah I know where you mean. Ton. ...Rob was Rob with you? Did Rob see you hit the wall?
R.
I don't know if he was there or not.
Q.
Well was he there? I mean you know when you leave the loo was he with you?
R.
No.
Q.
Have you before when Rob has been with you, hit the wall?
R.
No, I don't think so.
Q:
No?
R:
No.
We might have... you know have a laugh with each other playing about.
Q.
Do you know what you've done to your hands?
R:
Nothing. Bruised them.
Q.
Strange thing to do in't it, hit walls?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Hmm. What about some more names, think on. You must have been thinking about it while you've been down there surely? Down in the cells haven't you.
R.
I think what a nightmare it is, my mate's gone.
27.21:
Q:
It's a nightmare for you, but think about him and his family. That's, they're the people that are going through it and we've now got to try and catch whoever did it. So you've got to do your bit. Can you think of anything else?
Q.
If there's something that you're worried about, then you know there's nothing to be worried about I mean....
R:
Yeah I know, but I'd tell you everything to help you honestly. I just...
Q:
I mean did Tony say to you at all during the evening, "Cor look at him;" you know sort of, "He's a right bastard;" or anything like this at all where he might have had antagonism which you might not necessarily have known about, that he's had some problems in the past or that night?
R.
Sometimes when we've been out he's got a bit rowdy and you know I've had to say to him, you know he's said to me, "Look at that bastard;" you know and I'd say to him, "Look Tony shut up;" and he's alright, right right as rain. You just tell him to shut up, he's alright, but he he was like that. He was a bit, sort of a bit of a lad you know I mean....
Q:
Who has he had problems with before down there or anywhere else in Town?
R.
There's no there’s nowhere in particular you know what I mean, he'd just he'd just get a bit boisterous. Not towards any certain person. He just you know I mean you just had to sort of tell him to sort of shut up and that and then he was as right as rain again.
29.17:
Q.
When you left did you hear anybody walk up behind you? Did you look behind you to see what happening or anything?
R.
No I just, I didn't, I was just praying that. Honestly I was just, I couldn't believe it, I'd got all blood down my face, I just sort of kept walking on and the next thing you know I s... I.. Tony walked up to me or I see Tony and then we started walking and then like I say them lads came up and said something like, "Oh you've had a good kicking;" or "A fucking good kickinq, now it's your mates time, turn." And Tony replied something, but I don't know what he replied or no I said to them, "Piss off." They started running at Ton or they all started at Ton and that’s it Tony started running and so I just... Tony r... Tony run down there like that and flipped in the middle of the road. They caught him up and I run to the Gold Car Park to walk across there to get out of the way and then Tony was struggling with them and they was kicking and hitting him and he got away and run across there so I I come back again and started to walk down and I see him like turning up round about the Lattice House area and they were just kicking into him, but I just carried on. You know want I mean if I'd have gone up there I'd have probably got it as well wouldn't I?
30.43:
Q:
Yeah, but you can't think I mean you must have seen quite a little bit or ti...seen them for a little bit of time really, er? You saw them in thr..three or four different places didn't you?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
The initial contact, then in the beginning of the car park near the Lattice House and eventually when Tony was on the ground. I appreciate that you were getting further away....
R.
But when he was on the ground I was further.... .yeah.
Q.
I appreciate you were getting further away obviously, but you must, even if it's a colour of a jumper or something like that. What about wear wearing rugbv shirts. Were they wearing norm....
R:
I,I was wearing a rugby shirt.
Q.
You were yeah.
R:
Tony was wearing a rugby shirt.
Q:
Yeah and what about them?
Q:
Were they wearing coats or were they wearing jumpers?
R:
No, yeah I think probably they weren't wearing a coat I don't think, a jumper, I'd say a jumper or a smart shirt or something. I g... you see I, I didn't know it was to happen and so I, I weren't looking out for it if you know what I mean, so.....
Q:
Yeah, but you can recall things.
Q:
I mean really you don't recall an awful lot about anything that Happened last night do you?
R:
No.
Q.
I mean you think about it.
R:
No, I've, I've tried you know, I don't if it's because I got hit in the head, I don't know, but honestly whatever I try it my mind keeps going blank all the time, honestly.
32.03:
Q:
I just hope it's not a case that you're holding back on something that you know.
R.
No, I, I swear.... ' .
Q:
Because that would be very very sad if you are.
R.
Yeah I know it would because....
Q:
For any reason whatsoever if you are holding back it would be very very sad.
R.
Yeah I know, hon... honestly I ain't holding back. I want them people caught, but I... I can't help him....(crying) honestly I can't help.
Q.
It might come to you later on maybe.
R.
I tried. I just can't think.....
Q.
You reckon you've got one face in your mind, now just think about that face. As Mr. (inaudible) said before, close your eyes and just try and picture your fa...picture this face. Is it a fat face, is it a thin face.
R:
Sort of medium face, normal face. Sort of thinnish born structure,
structure you know.
Q:
A bit like mine?
R.
Yeah, actually I should say similar looking to you.
Q.
It weren't me though.
R:
(Laughs) No.... no honestly.
Q.
No I know what you mean, right. So that's a, that's a start isn't it?
R:
That's it yeah.
Q:
Now what else can you remember?
Q.
That don't help the tape Jack saying what you... that it's like you..
Q
Handsome, handsome. (Laughing).
Q:
I mean it's a fairly long face with sort of highish cheek bones and very angular perhaps er?
Q.
Has he got a big nose like that as well? (Laughing). No what about the nose, think about the nose. squashed nose, flat nose, pointed nose?
Q.
Was it a good looking bloke? was he pig ugly?
R.
Just average looking bloke I suppose.
Q.
Pardon?
R:
Just an average looking bloke you know.
Q.
I mean everything you're saying is very average, medium faced, that he might be a bit thin and then he's average looking, I mean.....
R:
Well he weren't, he weren't sort of ugly and he weren't sort of, sort of handsome bloke really, I .mean I don't really look at people and think cor he's a bit of alright you know.
Q:
No that's not what I meant you know.
Q.
No I don't mean that.
R:
He just, he just looked like a normal ......
Q.
He didn't have a nose all over his face or anything like that you know?
Q:
You would certainly notice an ugly bloke?
R:
Yeah, no he were... no I don't think he was an ugly bloke you know, he's a he's a respectable looking bloke yeah.
34.27:
Q.
Are we going to get any further?
Q.
What sort of age do you think? Put an age on him if you can.
R:
22, 23, 24, 25....
Q:
Early twenties is what you said last time.
R
Early twenties, yeah.
Q:
All three?
R.
Yeah, maybe one was a bit younger.
Q:
But you feel that one of them was certainly e... had some food?
R:
Yeah I think he did have some food because I... I think that when they come up to us he ha... He was holding something and eating something,
Q.
Yeah
Q:
Was it the one who spoke to you or not?
R:
Yeah the one that spoke.
Q.
The one that spoke.
R:
Yeah.
35.16:
Q.
Would urn...
R.
He might, he might not have been eating something you know, but he had, I'm sure he had something white in his hands as if that was a, a wrapper of some chips or kebab or something like that.
Q.
So yeah, but you, I mean you're not certain, you feel he had something white in his hands and you're just assuming it was food.
R.
That's right yeah.
Q.
I mean you didn't see it move to his mouth or anything?
R.
See it, it's hard to say in case I'm just imagining it, if you know what I mean. I, I, I know I seen something, but I don't what to say yeah he was, eating them in case it's just my imagination on that you know.
Q.
Umm well I hope you're being truthful with us.
R:
Yeah honestly that's the honest truth.
Q:
I mean if you're not. I mean if you're not we, I'll tell you now that we will find out because there's so many enquiries being done on this....
R:
Yeah.
Q.
Then we're getting to know all the time, various things, various things...
R.
Yeah.
Q.
I mean you've only just seen us two basically, but I can assure you there are a lot more people.
Q.
It's like your hands I mean we, you knew from what we were t... saying to you during this interview and that's why it came out.
Q:
Now why didn't you tell us first time that you hit a wall?
R.
I felt, I felt an idiot, do you know what I mean.
Q
Look that's the last thing that you've got to feel at me moment.
Q:
Well I'm given to understand that you've hit the wall before. That's why I've asked you.
R.
I've hit the wall before?
Q.
Yeah.
R:
Who said?
Q:
Well I've been told that, somebody said that you've got a bit of form for hitting walls when you lose your temper.
Q.
If you have you have.
R:
Er I don't think, I may, I may have hit a wall ages ago, but I, you know, I have hit a wall before then. This in't the first time I've.....
Q.
I don't say it to make us feel better. Have you hit a wall before?
R.
Yeah I have hit a wall before then.
Q.
On on a number of occasions?
R.
Well I don't know, see I know I, I hit a wall.....
Q.
When you've had a drink is that right? R.
What? what if I have a drink, let's, let's just say I don't want to hit anybody just to get rid of aggression.
37.13:
Q:
You'd rather hit the wall than hit a person.
Q:
That's fair enough. It's not an uncommon thing. I wish more people would hit walls rather than other peoole.
R:
Yeah alright.
Q:
That's no problem, that's no problem.
Q.
Why didn't you say that; before. Are you saying that to please us that you hit walls or is this the truth?
R.
That's the truth. I just, I don't know I just
Q.
Look the problem is that I don't understand why you, why you're doing this I mean your friend has been killed and you're worried about not telling us that you hit a wall now that doesn't seem right to me, I mean if it was my friend that was killed I'd say right I got these injuries, I'm a bloody fool, I hit a wall.
R:
Yeah alright then.
Q:
And I would have said hah yeah I believe that until we now, but we do know that you have hit walls before.
R.
Alright then, yeah I have.
Q.
Now what else haven't you told us?
R.
No....
Q.
Something that you might think is very silly, a bit embarrassing, I don't know. Something that might be embarrassing or something that's silly, something, I don't know if that's the case, that you might be worried about the future. No I don't really want... can I leave this out? Something that you, if you are holding back anything for god’s sake let us know.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Is there something that's playing at the back of your mind? To me there seems to be.
Q.
And if your mate don't p... don't p... try and protect Tony if he'd been
inv... Involved with something...
R.
No.
Q:
....earlier on then please for goodness sake you've got to tell us because that will clarify the picture and it may well have been that person who was involved in it earlier on.
R:
Tony is, is a bit rowdy.
Q:
Yeah well that's....
Q.
Is there... is there anything that happened earlier on that day or at any other time you can think that somebody might have a grudge against him, that they might have seen him down The Cellar Bar last night or indeed elsewhere?
R:
You see I, I only see Tony when he come home from work that day and then I see him the next when I went out with him.
Q.
Did you have any trouble in the other two pubs?
R:
No, but, but, when I got to the first pub Tony seemed a bit quiet for some reason, very quiet.
Q.
The first pub?
R:
Yeah the Wild Fowler
Q:
Why, why was that?
R:
I don't know.
Q:
Did you ask him why?
R:
Yeah I did ask him why and he said it was something to do with his tea was repeating, he had a bath with a full belly, straight after he'd had his tea and it was repeating. Yeah he was....
39.23:
Q:
So he just had a little bit of heartburn perhaps or something like that whatever you want to call it.
R.
Yeah and he, he just, he was really, really quiet and strange.
Q:
But he livened up throughout the evening though?
R:
Yeah.
Q:
Get a few beers down his neck and he was...
R.
Yeah.
Q;
Improving as the night went on.
R:
That's right yeah.
Q:
Now when he was in the Cellar Bar he got, he got a little bit loud didn't he?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
Now, who did he upset in there when he got a bit loud?
R.
Cor, honestly I.....
Q:
I mean don't worry about it if, well if you've told us something that ain't quite right before, now is the time to get it all sorted out.
R.
To tell you right?
Q.
Yeah, don't worry about that, we aren't going to shout at you because at the end of the day we want to know....
R.
That's right you want a picture built up.....
Q:
....(inaudible) So if it is the case that that's what's happened don't hold back.
R.
Alright then, Tony's done it before you know, he's got a bit, got a bit loud with people and I don't really take a lot of notice now because I know what he's like.
Q:
Yeah.
R.
Alright?
Q:
Yeah, but who was he getting loud at? Who did, who did he have this problem with in the Cellar Bar?
R.
I, I didn't, I didn't......
Q.
I mean if he's that loud...
R:
Yeah.
Q:
You would hear him above everybody else perhaps? would you not?
R.
No not over the music could you?
Q:
I don't know, I don't know how loud it was in there, I wasn't there. I'm too old for that sort of thing.
R:
Cause Tony was in there near the end though because I told you he was sitting there.
Q;
A-ha.
R:
And Rob and me and when I got up that telly fell down.
Q.
Yeah
R.
He was there then.
Q:
Yeah.
Q:
But there was... was there any problem over that telly falling down?
Q.
No.
R.
No
Q:
Everybody said that was a pure accident even if you'd have touched it, I mean it wasn't done on purpose so nobody's blaming anybody for that, that was forgotten.
R:
Yeah.
Q:
But after that Tony did have a row or had an arg... an argument with somebody.
R.
That didn't seem half an hour, three-quarters of an hour after that when the disco had finished so I thought I was with Tony nearly all the time you know.
Q:
But he was thrown out.
R:
No.. I... honestly I don't....
Q:
And then you went up the top, he was thrown out and he came back down in again and he was allowed back in.
R:
Yeah I don't know nothing about that.
Q:
And it was then that you may well have been at the time, cause you might well have left....
R:
I might of left then.
Q.
That’s right
R.
And he might, might have gone down and was talking to Carl SXXXXXXN, I understand there was a bit of a sort of a, what is the word for it, fuse between them.
Q:
I think there was an argument yeah.
R:
Yeah, so I tried to sort of, calm it down and then Carl then said, "Oh, you know, fuck you, I'll go and get Micky, he'll fucking sort you out you, you old bastard;" or something like that.
Q.
Well what was there a row about then, what were Tony and Carl arguing about?
R.
I don't know because when, when I waited at the stairs for Tony he weren't there so I just walked over and I heard them sort of arguing. So I just said, "Just leave it out;" I wanted to get home and get Tony out and then Carl went down to get Micky and said something about, "That (inaudible) bastard;" and then Micky said, 'What the one with The rugby shirt on or the one with the short hair, the little short bloke?" and he said "Yeah;" and he said, "I'll go out;" or something; "... and sort him out;" or something, and I said to Micky, "Look leave it out Micky you know he's had a few drinks and that just leave it." And as I was going up the stairs I think Carl was behind me and er then when I got to the top of the stairs I, I sort of had my hands like that on a rail...
Q:
What either side of the stairs?
R:
Yeah that's it. no, sort of on the left hand side like that, and I said,” Just come on Micky leave it alone “and all of a sudden he just grabbed me honestly and he squeezed me neck.
Q:
Did he say something to you? Did you say anything at all?
R:
Let me have that bastard or something.
Q:
Or would it not have been something like, "Don't tell me how to do my job."?
R:
Could have been something like that, yeah.
Q.
Well is that, was that said or don't you remember?
R.
Well yeah, probably words to some effect and then I, I turned round and said to him about why, why do you want to sort of hit Tony, he just doing his job or something like that. You, you are right there. You are right.
Q.
Yeah.
R.
Yeah.
Q.
Yeah so he did say that then?
R.
Yeah he did say something about like that, but then he said that, but why did he keep headbutting me? Why did he grab me afterwards and...
Q.
Well that I can't, I can't answer why he kept doing that, I don't see any reason why he would want to do that, but that is, there's nothing else you can think of?
R:
Not….
Q.
Are you certain?
R.
Yeah.
Q:
If there is at any time you've got to let us know as soon as possible.
R.
What about, can't I go round Town one day with one of you?
Q:
Well we'll sort that out afterwards look, it's coming to the end of the tape....
Q.
Yeah.
Q:
I haven't got anything further to say.
Q:
I've got nothing else to say.
SOLICITOR:
No I've got nothing.
Q.
No, is, is there anything that... else that you want to say?
R:
I'll just you know try and remember as much as I can.
Q:
Okay. I'll serve you with this.....
R:
.... and I'll, and I'll you know promise that'll I .......(inaudible over talking).
Q.
Do you want; do you want to make a written statement?
SOLICITOR:
No.
R.
No thank you.
Q.
I'll serve you with the notice at the end. The time is now 7.03 and I'll terminate the interview.
44.43.
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